Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.


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Thread: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

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    Default Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Recently and it seems rather suddenly that machined parts are substantially out of dimension.

    The machine has little machining time on it, in the hundreds of hours.

    I did a quick test by putting a .0001 dial on the spindle the X and Y and putting maybe 40 pounds push on the table, this deflects the needle by more then .0015.
    I presume cutting forces would push it past that. This was done with the bed more or less centered where most all machining has been done.

    The table was also checked at extreme ends of Y where essentially no machining has been done with mostly similar backlash readings.
    Did not check X before having to leave at that point.

    Looking for some advice/suggestions on what to look for and/or what to do next.
    Am wanting to do what I can for obvious reasons before calling Haas to diagnose the issue.

    Thanks much
    Ken

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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    The deviation that you're seeing when you push on the table is the backlash in the preloaded bearings and ballscrew.Although if it springs back to .0000-.0002" then your back is fine. Check each axis like that. The backlash shouldn't exceed no more than .0002". You could have a drawbar issue,spindle issue,parameters wrong,axis amp is going bad,motor encoder going out, power problems, circuit board could be going out. Contact your local HFO and have a certified tech look at you issue. He should help you eliminate all of these variables.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Thanks for the reply.
    It does spring back to with in the .0000-.0002.

    Clearly it is best to call the Haas HFO and with all the variables mentioned looks like there is not much choice.
    Was hoping to avoid that, this is mostly a hobby machine presently and they are so dang expensive. While they are all trained they are not all equal in ability which can lead to even more expense, but................ .

    Good thought on the draw bar, I'll check to be sure at least the pressure is up suggested.

    I machined a small rectangle today, Z was right on the money (give or take a couple tenths) X&Y on the other hand did maintained equal parallel distance but were out of programmed dimensions on X by .010 and Y by .005 (give or take again).



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Also check your level. You. Should check it annually because the ground underneath your machine does move throughout the seasons of the year.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    More good advice, have not checked the level in years.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Ken,

    Some ideas, most/all of which you've undoubtedly done:

    - no stray correction value left in the Wear column of an offset?
    - what are you using for CAM? Any chance there is a wear correction somewhere that hasn't been cleared?
    - the end mill you grabbed is definitely the diameter you think it is?

    Is the error "consistent" from part to part? (can you cut multiple simple parts of identical dimensions and see if they are all exactly the same)? Maybe even cut them in the center, then on one end of the travel/table?

    AFA: the .0015" of deflection when you push on the table -- remember it's a long ways around from the indictor to the table! (indicator, through the spindle mount, up the Z column, through the entire machine, back up through the bed all the way to the casing that supports the locating end of the ball screw(s). As HFO_tech said: if it springs back, you're good!

    PM



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Quote Originally Posted by precisionmetal View Post
    Ken,

    Some ideas, most/all of which you've undoubtedly done:

    - no stray correction value left in the Wear column of an offset?
    - what are you using for CAM? Any chance there is a wear correction somewhere that hasn't been cleared?
    - the end mill you grabbed is definitely the diameter you think it is?

    Is the error "consistent" from part to part? (can you cut multiple simple parts of identical dimensions and see if they are all exactly the same)? Maybe even cut them in the center, then on one end of the travel/table?

    AFA: the .0015" of deflection when you push on the table -- remember it's a long ways around from the indictor to the table! (indicator, through the spindle mount, up the Z column, through the entire machine, back up through the bed all the way to the casing that supports the locating end of the ball screw(s). As HFO_tech said: if it springs back, you're good!

    PM
    Yes, had dbl checked for wear offset in CAM and tool registry, tool diameter measured and definetly the correct end mill, you were correct in asking though because it is these simple things over looked that get you so often.

    Not sure on the consistency of the error over several parts, need to check and see.

    Checked the level, it is out substantially in Y and less in X but still out. That will be the next thing corrected before continuing, then I can check from part to part.

    Thanks for the input.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Keep us posted! I will be interested to hear what you find.

    thx
    PM



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    After you verify machine ballscrew aren't exceeding specs, verify and correct level. Then check how you column is square to the table ex. Machined test bar,sweep a 5"-10" diameter circle on the table to see how well your spindle in shimmed true to your machine table. Spec is no more than .0005" over a 10" circle.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    With the dial test gauge spring back to specs upon pushing the table I'm hopeful the screws are OK, was planning to level today but that didn't happen, nor tomorrow, perhaps Wednesday.

    Have never done a sweep test, level first and then will do the sweep test.

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    HFO Tech -- hopefully this is considered still inline with this thread content.


    My 2005 SMM has right about .0015" TIR sweeping the entire table off the spindle (11.75" circle). The high spot in the indictor is dead front, so column is tipped "toward" the operator.

    Are you saying there are two adjustments to fix this? Square column and/or square spindle?

    If so, do I put a master square on the table and indicated it running the Z up and down, and if that's out of square, shim the column? If it's not, and shows square, then shim the spindle on its mounting face?

    Thanks



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Correct me if I am wrong HFO Tech, but I do believe only the spindle cartridge gets shimmed. I honestly couldn't imagine loosening the bolts in the column and shimming that. Sounds to me like that would make more problems than it solved!

    As to the off location problem, are you saying that a milled profile is off compared to say, a drilled hole? Or do you mean off from where the work offset is set? Basically, is everything off or is it just some things? If everything is off, did something bump your vise, jaws, or other fixturing? Are there chips hiding somewhere in the workholding?

    Good luck!



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Thought I would post what I went through today on my 2005 SMM (in reference to the last few messages above) --

    First I went after it using the Starrett .0005" per foot level. The machine had "settled" just slightly toward the front since I landed it (1.5 marks on the bubble), so got it back to level with everything centered up (X and Y).

    I also checked level running the table to the limits in X, and as expected... it "sags" (table goes low at the extended end) close to 2 lines on the bubble with X at the limit either way. It changes in Y a bit as well, though not as much.

    Next, I placed my Hermann Schmidt master square on the table, and indicated up/down it on the Y side and on the X side, with the table in various locations. The master square is 7" tall, so I also tracked it with the Z near top of travel as well as near the bottom of travel. Every location yielded *slightly* different results. At the extremes (worst measurements) in fore/aft, I saw ~.0015" -delta- from most "tipped forward at the top" to... "most tipped backward at the top". As probably expected, the square tipped toward me with the Y axis plus (table all the way toward operator) and the square tipped just slightly toward the back at the top when the table was all the way back (Y negative). While these measurements moved around a fair bit (probably more than I'd like), they were all clustered around an average that leads me to believe the Z column (i.e. the guideways) are "close enough" to being square to the table in both the X and Y directions.

    So far, nothing unexpected, I suppose.

    I then swept the full width of the table (11.5") with the indicator stuck to the spindle. TIR was right at .0015" "heavy" at the front. I did the measurement with the X and Y both dead center in their travel. I then just loosened the 6 SHC screws that bolt the spindle to the bottom of the Z. With a little gentle tapping with a dead-blow plastic hammer, I backed off the screws and tapped on the spindle housing until I could just sneak a .002" shim into the gap and work my way around to see if there were any shims already installed. I found none. I then cut two pieces of .001" brass shimstock, placed them at about 10:30 and 1:30 positions (right up next to the bolts at 10 and 2 o'clock). I slowly worked my way around bringing the spindle up and incrementing the torque, and then tightened all the bolts up to 40 ft/lbs.

    End result -- I'm now at about .0002" -heavy- on the back side of the table. Considering the machine, its age (2005, though it has low hours), I'm good with it. It's a lot closer than it was.

    There is no denying, however, that this is not a Hermle. <grin>. The table and bearings "sag" in the expected direction any time table travel gets toward the limits.

    //end of my story... for now.

    PM

    Last edited by precisionmetal; 05-04-2017 at 03:03 AM.


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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Gizmo454 you're wrong. When the factory is building the machine they use a electronic level that goes into the millions of an inch. After they get base nice and level they use a precision test bar that is precision ground in the OD. Also the cylindrical test bar is precisely ground on each end so when the sit it the table it's true to the base in the millions of an inch. They mount a tenth indicator on the spindle head checking how true the z axis travels square to the x/y. They also use a granite square to check how each axis is parallel to each other as well as how each axis is perpendicular to one another.They may kick the table shifting the castings on top of the linear trucks. Once it's very square they use that cylindrical test and check the column. No, they don't always shim the column,but yes they do shim the column to get it true. Also depends how you level the machine as well because you can cause the column to tilt. Once that is all square then check how square the spindle cartridge is true to table. Maximum TIR is .0005"/10" circle sweep. If it exceed it then you loosen the bolts and let the spindle drop a little to slide a shim between the spindle and head casting. Then tighten the bolts and re-sweep. I spent 12yrs servicing these machines as a Haas certified tech. How they squared these machines I've had lots of practice doing it..haha Anyway they do shim the column at times to square it up.Although in my 12 yrs as a certified tech I've never had to re-shim the column.The level is 99% of the column tilt issue if the column isn't running square. Adjust the level a little more. Once it is square check how your spindle sweeps to the table. Shim the spots opposite of your high spots to get the spindle cartridge square to the table. You also can mount a .0001" indicator to the spindle and touch the your indicator tip on top of the table. Move x/y to there travel limits back and forth checking how well the table is flat/square to the spindle/column.

    Last edited by HFO Tech; 05-05-2017 at 01:54 AM.


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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Also unfortunately when you move x to its maximum travels from left to right or right to left and the table sags is due to the fact how they designed how wide apart the y axis linear rails are apart to each other. Your era of the machine is part of that design flaw. If they would've widened the y axis rails apart more it would've supported the over hang of the table better. They've redesigned it and corrected it over the years,but unfortunately you have that era machine. You can comp your program to help avoid the sag when machining or try not to machine parts where you start to see the overhang/sag. The SMM/TM models are known for that issue during that era,but like I said they've redesigned it and corrected that issue.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    HFO Tech,

    I understand the limitations of the machine -- not complaining at all, just attempting to make things as good as reasonably possible. Thank you for the input and information!

    I bought my machine used (10+ years old), and am quite pleased with it overall. It's easy to work on, easy to run, and is quite accurate and consistent.


    thx
    PM



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    HFO Tech,

    Thanks for the clarification. Haas shims the column at the factory, if it is needed. But it sounds I am somewhat correct in that it would make more sense to shim the spindle cartridge, if needed. Based on your words, you, yourself, never needed to shim the column in the field. And from the sounds of it, very few, if any of us machine shops would have all of the needed apparatus to check the square, parallel, and perpendicularity of the machine, to the degree Haas does at the factory, when dealing with loosening the column bolts. In my words, it might cause more problems than it's worth.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Gizmo, I wasn't suggesting for him to shim the column. I was suggesting that he would have to tweak his level a little more after his first initial level adjustments. Even if the base is reading level the column would still have to be tweaked a little bit while leveling so the column isn't tilting. You can't always see that when you sweep the table with the spindle. Seen it over hundreds of times when even installing the newest of new machines. When I suggested to check the column. Using a square or ground test bar in the spindle he can fine adjust the column to level of the base by slightly adjusting the correct leveling screws without shimming the column.



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    Default Re: Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

    Yep... I understood. Thanks HFO_Tech!

    PM



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Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.

Haas TM-1 maching out of spec parts.