Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07


Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 38

Thread: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    368
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I know this is a pretty wide range but I'm looking to buy a vf2 or vf3 in this range and I'm looking for some input on controllers, as well as the machine itself. I'm going to be running fixture plates with the whole table full of parts, 3D Adaptive, contour etc tool paths (long pieces of code). I'm wondering if there are some years in this range that have better/different features our if newer is just better and I should best buy the newest machine I can afford. This will be my first real machine, my first used machine, I have a couple Bridgeports and a coupe Tormachs, I'm just outgrowing them. I have been coming to the conclusion that an older machine will be just fine but I'm concerned with the older controllers abilities. Any info is greatly appreciated.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

    Similar Threads:


  2. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    126
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    just a heads up,, the haas controls made before 2007 are no longer supported ,,, its no longer a cheap $1,200 simple board swap when your control goes out its now a $12,000 retrofit to get the machine back running ,,, I would not even look at the haas machines older than 2007 unless your paying scrap price on them ... if you want a cheap easy to fix machine look at the fadal mills .... the older fadal 15 and 15xt machines with the 88hs control are nice machines ,,, I have two of them and well there not as fast as the new machines there just as fast as the older haas machines your asking about and you can get parts for them.



  3. #3
    Member Machineit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1852
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by D.D.Machine View Post
    just a heads up,, the haas controls made before 2007 are no longer supported ,,, its no longer a cheap $1,200 simple board swap when your control goes out its now a $12,000 retrofit to get the machine back running ,,, I would not even look at the haas machines older than 2007 unless your paying scrap price on them ... if you want a cheap easy to fix machine look at the fadal mills .... the older fadal 15 and 15xt machines with the 88hs control are nice machines ,,, I have two of them and well there not as fast as the new machines there just as fast as the older haas machines your asking about and you can get parts for them.
    New record, blows up post on the very first reply. A record that can never be broken. Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! WINNER

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


  4. #4
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    115
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I'd look for something with at least brushless servos, and probably vector drive. If you can afford it, I'd go with a coldfire II, but again, sometimes its better to buy a machine you can afford and upgrade by job success rather than borrow from a bank/whoever.

    I too have heard all about the board issue, but haven't heard yet of any one scrapping their machine.



  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    381
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by erikfriesen View Post
    ... I too have heard all about the board issue, but haven't heard yet of any one scrapping their machine.
    I don't know who would. Our 2007 SL-10 has been paid off for almost 5 years now. Given the choice between paying $12K to fix an old machine that is still mechanically sound and produces good, tight tolerance parts, OR paying another $85K to replace it, I am going to choose the $12K solution anytime. The only reason to replace the machine would be to get a new feature we don't have, like a sub-spindle or live tooling. We currently have a 1996 Citizen swiss screw machine that we dumped almost $25K into over the course of a year, replacing and/or repairing servo drives. That $25K was far less expensive than buying a new swiss at $250K. And the machine still runs great parts!



  6. #6
    Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    126
    Downloads
    4
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Gizmo
    I get that its worth fixing the machine if its smart money wise to do it ,, but why buy a machine you know you cant get the parts for when for little to no more money you can get the same machine but get parts for? The guy was asking for some input on the controls and I think giving him a heads up that the coldfire I control is no longer supported is some good info.



  7. #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    381
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Sorry D.D. if that's how it came off. That certainly wasn't my intent. By all means, if you can buy a newer machine with internals that are still supported, do it! I was mainly replying to Erik above. I don't know of anyone that would scrap a machine over a control board unless the rest of the machine was junk. Good hunting!



  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    368
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I totally agree guys, and I really appreciate your input. I'm trying to learn as much as I can before I decide on a machine. I bought two little Tormach mills brand new, don't laugh, I know, I spent as much as I'm looking to spend now in a real, old mill, at her time I needed the reliability and I didn't have the balls to dive into something that didn't have a warranty. The Tormach mills have been great, but I'm making a lot more parts now so I need something with some speed and hp.
    I'm happy to find out, well maybe that's worded incorrectly, that pre 07 Haas controllers are no longer supported, leaving a retrofit as the only real fix for a controller problem. This is the kind of thing I'm getting to figure out. To me, I think, if I can't get parts for it, it's of the table. If that's the car and I have to go to a 08 or newer vf3, I well probably be in search of a Fadal. That being said, I'm still trying to figure out what is hot and what's not in the world of older Fadal mills... 4020 is what I'm looking at mostly.



    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



  9. #9
    Member Machineit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1852
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Well done D.D.Machine! You may have just cost this gentleman a lot of money and heartache.

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


  10. #10
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    368
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by Machineit View Post
    Well done D.D.Machine! You may have just cost this gentleman a lot of money and heartache.
    What do you mean? I think we're on the same page, close to it maybe. I'm looking for something older, something I can get parts for, absolutely. I'm thinking I can spend under 25k probably a bit less, and get something that's actually a great machine, VF2-3, Fadal4020 are the lead candidates in my mind so far, just trying to find out the best options in the price range, serviceability being one of the primary concerns. I'd love to hear what you think.



  11. #11
    Registered
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    311
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Seeing how the original post was primarily about the control, it's perfectly relevant to point out that older controls are no longer supported. That being said, it does NOT necessarily mean you shouldn't buy an older machine. The control is only one factor. Given the choice between a very low hour 2005 machine and a 2010 machine that has been running 24/7 since it can out of the factory, I would probably take the 2005. Sure the control *could* die at some point but that doesn't mean it's likely to just because it's no longer supported. When buying any piece of used equipment you have to figure in the potential cost of repair parts and what impact the down time could have on the business. That's just good planning. Figure out what you're most comfortable with and make the best decision you can based on the information you have. If an older machine will get you a quicker ROI then it might be worth it. But if you're more comfortable having better parts availability and can wait longer for a ROI, get a newer machine. There are no wrong answers here.


    C|



  12. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    368
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Anyone with experience with multiple 95-05 controllers? What I'm really after is figuring out the pros and cons of various controllers, should I just get the newest one I can afford or are there some reasons I may prefer an older controller, like 98ish, over a 05 year controller.

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



  13. #13
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    490
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I have some older machines (1997, 1999, 2008) but we still use them alongside the newer equipment. The biggest limitation I hit with the older control is that you don't have much choice for the software options at this point, and also there were less options available back in those days. Some machines have expanded memory purchased right from the factory, but if you don't get lucky with that then you're stuck with the standard hardware. (or drip-feeding via serial RS232 connection)

    In terms of performance, outside of the slower and less-powerful machine itself, I find the older control and motion systems are noticeably slower on acceleration and point-to-point rounding...so the NC programs have to be written with a more loose toolpath tolerance when roughing or performing fast motions. Some modern CAM systems don't even have that ability (lol) since the newer hardware has no problem. The older machines don't have any option for high-speed machining, so you can't buy it even if you wanted to spend the money. Obviously that depends on the specific control vintage, but suffice it to say a CRT machine won't have the option.

    You can do 3d surfacing on the slower machines so long as you work with the speed limitations. We do some secondary 3d finishing on a 1999 VF1, which works fine but is noticeably slower compared to a color LCD machine, even if the newer machine also doesn't have HSM and is running the same programmed speeds and feeds. It's just limitations of the hardware of the era.

    Anyway, those are very application-specific warnings, so you may not run into it often. It would depend on the types of parts you're making. Naturally "the newer, the better" but a gently used older CNC is a nice candidate for a lot of work.



  14. #14
    Registered
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    311
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by Ydna View Post
    The older machines don't have any option for high-speed machining, so you can't buy it even if you wanted to spend the money. Obviously that depends on the specific control vintage, but suffice it to say a CRT machine won't have the option.

    My 2001 TM-1 is a CRT machine and has the option for HSM (which is really just a larger look ahead buffer). The option does make a difference when the code has lots of smaller moves (the motion is smoother), but I still wouldn't call it "high speed". It just doesn't have big enough motors on the axes to accelerate them very quickly. Of course it is an entry level machine so I can't really complain.


    C|



  15. #15
    Member
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    US
    Posts
    490
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    ah no kidding, I thought it wasn't introduced until the superspeeds in like 03-04 or thereabouts. learn something new every day



  16. #16
    Member Machineit's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    1852
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    I have a 1997 VF-2 with older software, still 4 number programs, and it has HSM too.

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


  17. #17
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    133
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    The retrofit covers all brushless machines with a cold fire 1 and up, don't buy a brush machine and as far as buying a fadal good luck finding service in a timely manner plus the prices on repair parts are more than any of HAAS would charge you for. If you buy a 04-08 machine yes you will have to upgrade when the board goes, but who knows when it would. It could be years down the road before you have to upgrade.Also generally Haas tries to lower their prices on repairs every year that goes by so by the time you would have to upgrade it could be 7-8k upgrade. The upgrade will then give you a newer faster control that will be supported for many years. One more thing, the upgrade doesn't just give you a 12k replacement board it actually gives you a new board with a new operators pendant with newer 17-18 series sofware that comes in the 2010-2012 machines. Good luck if you buy a fadal, but the 12k retrofit is by far worth the investment for another 10-15 yrs. I've been to lots of shops that are wanting to throw their fadals out to the scrap yard simply because the repairs/down time isn't worth continuing to have them in their shops.



  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2015
    Posts
    368
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Quote Originally Posted by HFO Tech View Post
    The retrofit covers all brushless machines with a cold fire 1 and up, don't buy a brush machine and as far as buying a fadal good luck finding service in a timely manner plus the prices on repair parts are more than any of HAAS would charge you for. If you buy a 04-08 machine yes you will have to upgrade when the board goes, but who knows when it would. It could be years down the road before you have to upgrade.Also generally Haas tries to lower their prices on repairs every year that goes by so by the time you would have to upgrade it could be 7-8k upgrade. The upgrade will then give you a newer faster control that will be supported for many years. One more thing, the upgrade doesn't just give you a 12k replacement board it actually gives you a new board with a new operators pendant with newer 17-18 series sofware that comes in the 2010-2012 machines. Good luck if you buy a fadal, but the 12k retrofit is by far worth the investment for another 10-15 yrs. I've been to lots of shops that are wanting to throw their fadals out to the scrap yard simply because the repairs/down time isn't worth continuing to have them in their shops.
    Do you mind if I pick your brain a little more? I would love a Haas, I was leaning towards the Fadal for a couple reasons but I think it's controller is really slow and can't handle a lot of 3D Adaptive ops, short back and forth moves etc. I'm wondering how similar year Fadal controllers compare to the Haas controllers as far as that, look ahead, acceleration/deceleration etc. My problem is I need to make very different parts, these people parts are 10inX4inX1in and the little squares are 1in squares. I want to fill a 4020 table with them and make thousands as fast as I can. Lots of hogging out and lots of little 3d moves. What do you think?

    Thank you very much taking the time to help me out, it's greatly appreciated!

    Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk



  19. #19
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    133
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Yes, you're correct the fadal control isn't as fast, the specs of a Haas VF-3SS/VF-4SS are almost identical on travels. I do believe the VF-4SS has a slightly bigger table,10" more on Z travel and comes with a side mount tool changer vs a fadal 4020 umbrella tool changer which is extremely slow. If you you got the probing package with the expanded memory, and the High Speed Machining you will knock those parts out in no time. The high speed option lets the control look ahead in the program by a 1000 lines.the side mount tool changer is a 30-40 tool vs a 20-24 umbrella on a fadal.tool changes on the Haas will be a hell of lot more faster. The rapids on the VF-4SS are 1,400 ipm and cutting is 833 I'm. I'm not sure how fast the fadal's are,but from my experience of being around them it's extremely slower than the Haas's. Plus you can get it with a 10-15k spindle vs a fadal 10k spindle. As far as short movements for 3D either machine will run it,but the Haas VF-4SS definitely will machine those parts faster and they have a little bit more of everything than the Fadal 4020.



  20. #20
    Registered
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    133
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

    Oh and I just recently checked and the retro fit is now down to 7k already. So the cost of the upgrade has already dropped in price.



Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07

Preferred Controllers 1990 to 07