Pre HSM cutting speed

[tbev]

I'm trying to decide on a new used mill, I really think a vf2 is what I want, I would love the envelope of the vf3 but outs to talk I think for my garage. 83in. Doorway.
Can anyone with a pre HSM vf1,2,3 please tell me how fast you generally rough out aluminum, WOC DOC and most importantly IPM. I know lot of them say 710IPM rapids right on the sides, but can it handle 710IPM rapids for all non cutting moves in 2d/3D adaptive paths? How fast do you cut with your machine? Do you run into problems at a certain feed rate, right back and forth moment, acceleration deceleration ? Any info is very much appreciated.

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[erikfriesen]

By pre HSM I assume you mean 68k motorola processor, late 90's? Some of them had the coprocessor and can do some limited HSM the way I understand.

While perhaps one could tweak the max feedrate, I am not sure that would really work. The max feedrate from the factory is 300 ipm, but the control really doesn't work stuff smoothly after about 150ipm, as the processor isn't fast enough to do exponential accel/decel at those feedrates.

See page 70-71 and 160 here https://diy.haascnc.com/sites/defaul..._June_2001.pdf

My experience(in plastic) is that 250ipm followed by 100ipm can be heard in the machine, although this can be helped by judicious use of G187

Some older machines spindle drawbar is only around 1200lb, which is somewhat of a limiting factor with hsm and high helix cutters.

[Matt@RFR]

If you are wanting to use HSM techniques and really haul ass, you really need to get in to a machine that supports G187 with both P and E inputs. I don't know what year that is, but I do know that a 2001 does NOT accept E inputs. I did some programming for the guy that owns that machine and I had to back feedrates down so far to get the machine to stop hammering that it made a lot more sense to just go after his parts the old fashion way.

Also, rapids mean nothing for HSM toolpaths. Your back feed moves will be G1/G2/G3 moves so the path is controlled. Whatever your max feedrate is what you should be looking at, not rapids.

[tbev]

Thanks guys, cutting around 150ipm is about the max is what I've heard a lot. I think HSM option became available around 07, I could be wrong, but I'm wondering if there's a noticeable difference in performance of the controllers (and the cutting speed, accel/decel) between controllers earlier than that. I'm looking to spend around 20-25k on a machine and I just want to make parts as fast as I can. I have some parts that need a good amount of roughing (1inX10inX4in ) and some that are real detailed little (1in cubes).


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[erikfriesen]

HSM became an option somewhere around 2000 I think. Whether it does anything close to later HSM I don't know. My HFO says V9.64 has hsm.

[tbev]

HSM became an option somewhere around 2000 I think. Whether it does anything close to later HSM I don't know. My HFO says V9.64 has hsm.

Thanks bud, I appreciate it. Do you cut aluminum? If so, what's a typical, aggressive roughing feed / speed for you?

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[erikfriesen]

I don't do a lot. I have one job where I run a 3 flute 1/2" htc endmill rougher at 9000RPM x 135 in/min at .21 woc and .475 doc. I don't pretend that this is pushing any limits.

I have a 96 without hsm, and this works well enough. I call a g187E0.1 before running this, and that helps a bunch.

If you are coming from a tormach, tool changes and rapids and the whole package are so different from linuxor mach that I wouldn't sweat the hsm too much. If you get an lcd haas it will most likely have hsm capability.

I used linuxcnc on a little router for years, I'd have a hard time going back.

[tbev]

I just want to be able too rough and still be able to get intricate on little parts with the same machine. I don't need HSM really I just want it to make parts faster than the little Tormach mills. I was thinking 7 to 10 times faster but I guess it's only really going to be 2 or 3 times faster.

I'd love to stick with a 1996-98 machine, because of the price. Your happy with yours? Anything in particular that you would you like to have that you don't?

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[erikfriesen]

If a person doesn't watch himself, he always wants more. Overall I am satisfied with mine though. I don't like the fact that I have to use DNC vs ethernet, but I still wouldn't trade the control for lcnc. There are so many features and stuff that makes these controls nice to use that you'll not look back. However, stuff does cost more to repair. I paid $16k for mine and ended up needing to rebuild the spindle right off, mainly because I didn't know what I was looking at when I bought it.

I'd steer you towards a vector drive, brushless machine. I don't have a vector drive, and wish I did.

I didn't have macros or rotation and scaling when I bought my machine, but do now, as I added a probe to mine, which is really nice.

I also have a 10k spindle and 4mb memory, which I appreciate.

Another haas plus vs tormach, there are so many safeguards built into the machine that once you get a program that runs, its something you feel more comfortable pushing the green button and walking away.

[tbev]

If a person doesn't watch himself, he always wants more. Overall I am satisfied with mine though. I don't like the fact that I have to use DNC vs ethernet, but I still wouldn't trade the control for lcnc. There are so many features and stuff that makes these controls nice to use that you'll not look back. However, stuff does cost more to repair. I paid $16k for mine and ended up needing to rebuild the spindle right off, mainly because I didn't know what I was looking at when I bought it.

I'd steer you towards a vector drive, brushless machine. I don't have a vector drive, and wish I did.

I didn't have macros or rotation and scaling when I bought my machine, but do now, as I added a probe to mine, which is really nice.

I also have a 10k spindle and 4mb memory, which I appreciate.

Another haas plus vs tormach, there are so many safeguards built into the machine that once you get a program that runs, its something you feel more comfortable pushing the green button and walking away.

Thanks so much, I really appreciate hearing that, I see your point for sure. I'm doing runs of 1000 parts on the Tormach now and it takes quite some time, weeks. What did it cost to add a probe, if you don't mind me asking? Can you use it to replicate a part, or do you just use it for setup?

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[erikfriesen]

I paid around 5500 for it, it comes with macros, etc. Note though that this is not supported by Haas due to the year of the machine, I was on my own with it. I mainly use it for part setups, and automated work offset adjustments on second ops. It also comes with a tool setter which is rather nice.

I bought two kurt 688's, but now wish I had bought a couple dual station vises and baseplate like chick or similar. If you keep track of the fixture holes, it can work real well. I know someone with the chick system who hardly uses his probe because of how he has it set up.

[cygnus x-1]

You know one other thing to consider with a Haas (or any bigger mill really) vs Tormach is the vastly increased table size. Even if you can't run parts a whole lot faster you can still get more parts out a single run, which means that you can be doing other more productive things while it's running. And if the run times are long enough you can possibly run it unattended at night. Having a tool changer is also a HUGE advantage.


C|

[Ydna]

I have a 1997 and 1999 mill (no HSM) which are mostly used for secondary operations rather than roughing material. We virtually never run HSM toolpaths on those mills. Sometimes it's an option on the outside profile of a workpiece, but almost never for a pocketing operation since the space is so confined. HSM has many applications but you need fast spindle speed and axis motion to see practical benefits.

Haas would have a lot of advantages over a Tormach (as already mentioned above), but in some areas they'd perform similar when all is said and done. The rapid speed difference would be very noticeable, even with an older Haas. I'd also say the CAT40 toolholders and toolchanger works much better than the Tormach equivalent. BUT there are certain factors that would be very similar, such as small-diameter tools that need VERY high spindle speeds, or operations where the machine itself isn't the bottleneck (such as workholding issues, coolant issues, using fragile tools, tools that must be ran slow to achieve good surface finish, etc).

[tbev]

I'm really only concerned with cutting aluminum, I'm worried about lack of axis speed, not necessarily going to be running true HSM ops, I'm just worried about a machine cutting slow. I've been watching a ton of YouTube videos with vf2/3's cutting aluminum at 40ipm. I know I can take a bigger bite but I'm probably going to be using 3/8in and smaller cutters, at lest for finishing. I'm worried that I'm going to have to take huge bites to compensate for slow cutting feeds and that's just going to make holding parts harder.

[cygnus x-1]

I'm really only concerned with cutting aluminum, I'm worried about lack of axis speed, not necessarily going to be running true HSM ops, I'm just worried about a machine cutting slow. I've been watching a ton of YouTube videos with vf2/3's cutting aluminum at 40ipm. I know I can take a bigger bite but I'm probably going to be using 3/8in and smaller cutters, at lest for finishing. I'm worried that I'm going to have to take huge bites to compensate for slow cutting feeds and that's just going to make holding parts harder.

With cutters that small you're going to run out of spindle speed long before axis speed is a problem, at least with the standard 7500RPM spindle.

And I'm not convinced that running high feeds with low step overs is going to help that much with pulling force on the stock. The higher the material removal rate is, the more power it will take. More power means more pulling force on the part. There are a million variables that go in to this so I don't think you can just assume a lower step over will mean less force on the part.


Here's a question: When you say that you're running the Tormach at 130IPM, what are the other conditions that go along with this? Cutter size/type, axial/radial DOC, spindle RPM? How is the part being held? If you can provide a specific example it might be easier to give input on how you would do the same thing on an older Haas.


C|

[tbev]

With cutters that small you're going to run out of spindle speed long before axis speed is a problem, at least with the standard 7500RPM spindle.

And I'm not convinced that running high feeds with low step overs is going to help that much with pulling force on the stock. The higher the material removal rate is, the more power it will take. More power means more pulling force on the part. There are a million variables that go in to this so I don't think you can just assume a lower step over will mean less force on the part.


Here's a question: When you say that you're running the Tormach at 130IPM, what are the other conditions that go along with this? Cutter size/type, axial/radial DOC, spindle RPM? How is the part being held? If you can provide a specific example it might be easier to give input on how you would do the same thing on an older Haas.


C|

I gotcha, I agree about running out of spindle speed, I really have only been looking at 10k spindle machines, which brings me to another question, what's the duty cycle for a 7500RPM spindle and a 10K spindle? I run the Tormachs one is a 5k and one is a 10k spindle, at max rpm all day, 24/7. I just found out the Fadal 4020 will supposedly go thru spindles (10k) if ran above 8k to much.



So here's a common part / recipe, it's 4inX4inX1in stock held in by miteebite clamps on one side. I have been pulling them out of the non miteebite side occasionally, so I backed down a little to 110IPM, 0.085WOC, 0.40DOC with a 3fl 1/4in end mill. I'm a little slower roughing and finishing this part entirely with the 1/4in end mill but it saves me a tool change, (otherwise I would rough with a 3/8in em and finish with the 1/4) and it's been pulling parts out going this fast / hard so until I can add miteebite clamps to the opposite sides of the fixture, so it will be holding both sides of the part with clamps as opposed to clamps on one side and a rail on the other. Using clamps on both sides is what I figured I would have to do with a higher power machine.




So I figure I will make up time with more WOC /DOC, maybe do it all in one DOC, which I think I can do with 7500 RPM spindle even, I'm worried about gouging parts or starvation .

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