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  1. #41
    cmacclel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    An advantage the Haas has is the ability to run on single phase power.

    Also does the Trak have all the canned cycles; G71, G72, G70 for roughing and finishing, G74, G75 for pecking grooving on OD and face, G32, G76, G92 for threading.
    Here is the manual

    http://www.southwesternindustries.co...494_Manual.pdf

    It has Tool Tip Radius Compensation and

    Canned Cycles
    • Position
    • Drill
    • Bore
    • Turn
    • Arc
    • Cycle
    • Thread
    • Groove


    Additional Canned Cycles:
    - Custom thread
    - Tap
    - Thread repair



    Mac



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    so is the Trak SLX control on the 1630 lathe more powerful than the HASS TL-1 control? and easier to use and program for small lot runs?



  3. #43
    cmacclel
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    Well times up I need to purchase something ASAP as my current machine is going back at the end of next week.

    I demoed the controller boxes for both the Trak 1440ex and 1630sx. They both where somewhat archaic compared to the TL lathes but once gotten use to seemed to be much faster to program than the TL series controller.

    I went and saw a TL-1 friday and man the pictures do not justify the size of this beast! It's huge with a much bigger footprint than the trak lathes.

    Hopefully someone here with a TL can clarify something for me.

    With the track lathes you can easily write a whole program
    with multiple tools and once the program is running the lathe moves back to the set home position and prompts you to change the tool, then press go an the lathe is off to the next operation. Can you do this with the TL-1 with the conversational programming easily? Whats up with the record feature?? It seems kind of silly to me if I understand it right.

    From the manual it seems to me you need to write a single operation in the IPS software then run the operation and while it's running you can record it. Then write another operation and again record it. Can you write a hole program with multiple operations as one program on the machine? Will it prompt you to change tools like the traks?


    Thanks Mac



  4. #44
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    I heard the TL lathes aren't nearly as easy to program as the ProtoTRAK's are.
    I have 2 prototraks in the shop..



  5. #45
    Member Donkey Hotey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cmacclel View Post
    Can you do this with the TL-1 with the conversational programming easily? Whats up with the record feature?? It seems kind of silly to me if I understand it right.
    Yes, Mac, it will let you write programs conventionally, at the control. All you do is change the tool specification in the program and the machine will stop and ask you to load the proper tool (by number).

    What I do, is pick a 'safe position' on the lathe (clear of the part, with any of the tools). When I do a tool change, I go into machine coordinates (G53) then rapid to that position, then change the tool number. I keep a paper table of all of my tool blocks (with the description) on the back splash guard. I put the same description in the comment after the tool block.

    This is an example of how I work on my TL. I write what I want to do out in comment blocks. I add the G-code where I remember it but I focus on the part flow at this point. I go back through and build each operation with actual code and coordinates after the fact. I do this in Notepad and move it to the control. It's not that you can't do it at the control but typing just goes faster on a computer.

    I've highlighted the moves that I use over and over for the tool changes. I use a safe move to clear the part to a standard location, shut off the coolant, stop the spindle. The machine pauses, waits for the tool change. You resume by pressing Cycle Start again. The commands restart the spindle and the coolant and return to the start of the next operation.

    %
    O00220
    (Pivot balls)
    (Stock Diameter: 7/8" Brass)
    (Chuck 2.2-2.5" from jaws)
    (Cycle ends with Parting tool)
    (at set point for next part)
    (pull bar to face of parting tool)
    (before resuming)
    (Tools)
    (T2 Right Facing tool)
    (T10 Parting Tool)
    (T6 Left profiling tool)
    (****************************************)
    (PREPARATIION)
    G54 G50 S1200 (Spindle Max RPM)
    G96 S600 (CSS on, 800 SFM)
    (****************************************)
    T10 (LOAD PARTING TOOL)
    G00 X0.25 Z0.05 (Loading Position)
    M00 (Ensure Bar is against Parting Face)
    G53 G00 X-5. Z-13. (Tool Change location)
    (****************************************)
    (RH Side of Bar)
    T2 (Aloris Turn Face Holder)
    M08 (Coolant On)
    M03 (Spindle Start)

    G00 X0.9 Z0.05 (Return Point)
    G72 P1 Q2 D0.04 F0.004 U0.002 W0.002 (Roughing Cycle)
    N1 G00 X0.880 Z-0.4 (two axis move--type 2 roughing)
    G01 X0.748 Z-.374 F0.002
    G03 X0.0 Z0.0 R0.374
    N2 G01 X-0.05
    G70 P1 Q2 (Finish Pass)
    M09 (Coolant off)
    M05 (Spindle Stop)
    G53 G00 X-5. Z-13. (Tool Change location)

    (****************************************)
    (LH Side of Bar)
    T6 (Kennametal LH Profiling Tool)
    M08 (Coolant On)
    M03 (Spindle Start)

    G00 X0.9 Z-1.6 (Return Point)
    G71 P3 Q4 D0.04 F0.004 U0.005 W-0.005 (Roughing Cycle)
    N3 G00 X0.875 Z-1.520 (two axis move--type 2 roughing)
    G01 X0.5 Z-1.252 F0.002
    Z-0.652
    G02 X0.748 Z-0.374 R0.374
    N4 G01 Z-0.350
    G70 P1 Q2 (Finish Pass)
    M09 (Coolant off)
    M05 (Spindle Stop)
    G53 G00 X-5. Z-13. (Tool Change location)
    (****************************************)

    (PARTING)
    T10 (LOAD PARTING TOOL)
    M08 (Coolant On)
    M03 (Spindle Start)

    G00 Z-1.38 (Parting Location)
    X0.55 (Rapid to Surface)
    G75 X-0.02 I0.025 F0.003
    (****************************************)
    M09 (Coolant off)
    M05 (Spindle Stop)
    G00 X0.25 Z0.05 (Loading Position)
    (Unchuck Bar, Pull to Parting Bar Face)
    M30
    %
    I use the conversational programming for simple, single operations (facing, turning or threading) but I haven't used the Record feature yet. I have used the Profile feature to build a path right at the control. I took the dimensions off of the old part with a caliper and literally drew the part on the control. It knocked out a handful of them in nothing flat.

    My opinions of the TL-1 can sometimes seem like I don't like it. That's not really true. I love the machine but I'm constructively critical of it. I don't want anybody thinking that I'm blindly supporting Haas. It has its pros and cons. I've had it a year now. If I could do it over, there is nothing in the price range that I would have bought instead. If I had twice as much money as I spent on the TL-1, I'd buy a TL-2 with an enclosure and more options, not somebody else's machine. That's not to suggest that somebody else might not make a better machine but I'm not dissatisfied enough to find out.

    Greg


  6. #46
    cmacclel
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    Quote Originally Posted by squale View Post
    go with a TRAK lathe. the new 1630 is nice for a lighter machine. The 1840 is REALLY nice!

    I was told the 1630 is stiffer and can take a larger cut than the TL-1 due to the boxed ways, I have no idea if this is true.

    I'm sick of looking for a new lathe

    I looked at a Demo TL-1 on monday and even though the Haas contoller seems more powerful I like the simplicity of the Trak controller.

    One thing that I really disliked on the TL-1 was the IPS conversational sofware did not let you specify a finish cut or finish feedrate. The Haas engineer stated you could go into profile mode and specify a rough pass then after completed go back and enter a finish pass.

    With all the bells and whistles in the Haas controller I'm suprised this is not standard on the IPS screen.

    When programming the Trak in any of the canned cycle modes it will ask you whay depth of cut and feedrate for roughing and then ask what depth of finish pass and feedrate along with a different tool option.

    Mac



  7. #47
    Member Donkey Hotey's Avatar
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    Technically speaking, a 'finish pass' would involve a different tool (rounded nose, deep cuts for quick roughing, sharper cutter, light cut for finish). So if you were truly building a program in IPS, you'd be building two different passes with a tool-change.

    I would never suggest that you're going to rely on the IPS screens to serve your needs. IPS is convenient for one-off jobs where you just want to turn a shoulder or thread something. It's too limiting to really allow you the control you're going to need/want if you're doing production parts.

    I wouldn't lie to you: you're going to have to learn G-code if you buy the Haas. It's not rocket science. There are only a handful of canned cycles for everything you do. It ain't that hard. Take a look at the program I posted above (with comments). That was roughing, finishing, tool-nose compensation, a work offset, tool offsets, coolant and spindle starts/stops; all in one program.

    I've got Mastercam for my mill but that doesn't keep me out of the G-code. In fact, I often have to do a simplified program of what I want to do, then post it and check the G-code to see if it's doing what I expect/want it to do. The latest is fine-boring: I'm having to verify that the shift direction is going the right way and that it's generating the proper G-code for the type of boring I want.

    So the bottom line is: CNC = knowing G-code (or some other language). If the machine promises conversational programming, I'll promise that you'll still end up having to learn what's going on under the hood. Maybe the Trak is closer to what you want out of a machine but I doubt you can really avoid learning a language with 'production' parts. I'd bet the Trak is specialized for environments where they need a handful of simple bushings, made in a hurry and then change to something else. That's what conversational programming is for, not production parts.

    BTW: I hate the look of the new Haas software but if it were my purchase, I'd still want the latest and greatest. I have zero complaints about the software on my TL-1 (7/08 build date) but the world moves on...

    Greg


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    I have to chime in here and say that we have two trak lathes and we don't know any g-code. Never needed to, the conversationaly is great. And we make all sorts of different complex turned parts all day long on the prototrak lathes..



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    I've had a TL-1 for going on 5 years. No problems. It is not the stiffest machine, but it is exactly what it is supposed to be. It has paid for itself many many times over. I would buy one all over again.
    D.H. nailed it. You will need to learn G-code eventually. It is not difficult. It is very logical. The IPS system is only for short runs when your brain is lazy. It is really hard to go back and tweak that code when you need to, and you will, trust me.
    I went back and forth on the HAAS and TRAK machines. Essentially they both could have served my needs. But it came down to two things for me.
    1> The TRAK machines are Chinese iron fitted with the Trak control (somebody spank me here if this is wrong).
    2> The HAAS control uses a standard FANUC programming. Your knowledge will transfer over to other machines. After working the TL-1 you pretty much can walk up to any other HAAS lathe and go to work.



  10. #50
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    I again have to say you guys that haven't used trak lathes are DEAD wrong here about the G-code thing. we have been using Prototrak lathes in our shop for 7 years now, and we are a prototyping shop so we CONSTANTLY are making new different parts with varying complexities. There hasn't been one thing yet that we couldn't program in conversational and none of us know any g-code at all!

    But I will agree with you by saying that G-code doesn't look to hard to learn and that it's probably a good idea to learn if you are using other machines especially machines based on Fanuc controls or running Fanuc code... this is so widely used that it's a great thing to learn. But nowadays you really don't need to learn the G-code like you used to with these new conversational ways of programming and especially with new CAM software..

    oh and the last trak machine we bought was a 2004 prototrak 1540 with the vl control. The sticker on the side of the machine says 'made in Taiwan'. The new trak lathes I don't know where they are made. But don't knock all the chinese stuff, there is a lot of junk from China but if you get a US company that goes to China and sets forth specifications on their machines to be built you can get some pretty nice machines coming from the same Chinese factories.. just have to make sure you direct these chinese people on what you are looking for. good example.. look at the PM series of machines from this guy Matt.. I have only read GREAT things about their quality being right on par with Taiwan built machines, etc. And guess what, they are made in the same chinese factory that makes other machines for Clausing, etc. http://www.machinetoolonline.com/Newlathes14to19.html
    I just ordered a new PM1640 manual lathe with a DRO.

    If you are going to go the g-code route and learn G-code and use CAM software to program, etc.. you might want to take a look at this machine and save a bundle of money over either the Hass or the Prototrak... http://www.machinetoolonline.com/PM-1330CNC.html

    YouTube has videos of this machine running...



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    Quote Originally Posted by DEAN View Post
    ...After working the TL-1 you pretty much can walk up to any other HAAS lathe and go to work.
    A very nice thing about doing prototyping on the TL machinres is that your programs can transfer directly onto the other Haas machines when/if you want to move them to higher volume.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


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    this is one area I DO NOT like about prototrak, most of the controls don't even allow you to input g-code and your programs are specific to their controls. It would be nice to have portability but for me I don't need it


    Quote Originally Posted by Geof View Post
    A very nice thing about doing prototyping on the TL machinres is that your programs can transfer directly onto the other Haas machines when/if you want to move them to higher volume.




  13. #53
    cmacclel
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    Quote Originally Posted by squale View Post
    this is one area I DO NOT like about prototrak, most of the controls don't even allow you to input g-code and your programs are specific to their controls. It would be nice to have portability but for me I don't need it
    You can input a G-code program you just need to rename it to .LX2 or .CAM and the Trak will convert it. At least that is what the saleman told me.

    Mac



  14. #54
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    This has been an informative thread. I looked on YouTube and couldn't find a single video of one of these lathes in action. I'm interested enough that I'll spend more time in their booth next year. G-code wasn't really that big of a deal but I'm still intrigued by the idea of a totally conversational control.

    Greg


  15. #55
    cmacclel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    This has been an informative thread. I looked on YouTube and couldn't find a single video of one of these lathes in action. I'm interested enough that I'll spend more time in their booth next year. G-code wasn't really that big of a deal but I'm still intrigued by the idea of a totally conversational control.
    Not much of a video but 1:13 into

    "http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=-J_gm1U1es0"]YouTube - Garage Shop

    Trak 1630sx

    Mac

    Last edited by cmacclel; 11-06-2008 at 08:15 AM.


  16. #56
    cmacclel
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    Quote Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey View Post
    This has been an informative thread. I looked on YouTube and couldn't find a single video of one of these lathes in action. I'm interested enough that I'll spend more time in their booth next year. G-code wasn't really that big of a deal but I'm still intrigued by the idea of a totally conversational control.
    Here is the link to download the offline software which allows you to build programs at and computer and port them over to the control via USB Key.

    The documentation is non existent but a few things I have learned

    Alt + L = Look whats what your drawing
    Alt + B = Back
    Alt + I Incremtal or radious
    Alt + G = Go

    Also this is slightly dated the controller now has "Depth of Cut in the cycle command instead of number of passes.

    Check it out!

    To start click "Go to Lathe" then "Check System"

    http://www.southwesternindustries.com/swi/PT6OL.shtml

    Keep in mind this is for the non CSS lathe. The other interface for the more advanced machine just has provisions for CSS and a couple more canned cycles.


    Mac



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    hi i am new to cnczone , can anyone recommend a good cad / cam software program that will run on vista 64 bit and offers advice on feed rates and depth of cut for titanium ect , i am new to cnc and i am considering a haas tl1 . i already use a manual warco 1440 lathe (chinese) but also wonder how difficult it is to learn cnc ect . i have visions of costly tools being smashed up ect.
    also i hope to use gang tooling if any software might have that on it .

    Last edited by simonlawrence; 11-16-2008 at 07:15 PM. Reason: add more info


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    TL-1 is nice, I have one. Make sure you order it with a tailstock. Tried to cut down the price, so I ordered with no tailstock. Once I got the money to buy one, now they tell me it is not field installable. I use MasterCAM for my CAM software. It makes suggestions for speeds and feeds but they are only as good as your tooling and material files are, and they are user configurable.



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    Hi, Ireland calling. This is my first posting, been a voyeur for a while, but felt I should pitch in, particularly in reply to Simonlawrence.

    We've had Haas VMCs for 5 or 6 years & would recommend them. All our milling programming is offline, Licom Alphacam.

    Two months ago we bought our first Haas lathe, a TL1. I had planned to contact Alphacam for a turning module & postprocessor, but after the training, thought we'll give it a few weeks and see how we get on. The intuitive programming system is so good and fast that we wouldn't dream of bypassing it with an expensive cad cam system. Whether it's 1 off or 100 off the TL1 is a real pleasure to program and use



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    with my being new to cnc , is it easy to pick up without smashing tools ect



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