Door locks? this is crazy.
We were going to purchase a new machine. I recieved my quote, and this letter stating the NEW door lock details for a new lathe. These "features" are going to render this machine nearly useless for our job shop. I cut and pasted some of the letter, but couldnt get the charts to load up, so if anyone would like a copy of this , just send me an email. It appears, that they have removed any and all ability to run anything with the door open. 50 rpm, no axis travel and no turret index what so ever?????? (in a program cycle) The NEW version of their safety features, removed the ability to change settings and parrameters all together, to get the machine to function.
Im afraid this is going to be a deal breaker. I think this is why the used market is crazy expensive right now, but unfortunately, this is whats going to have to happen. I can forsee this killing sales of new equipment for a couple of years, then the restrictions being lifted, making these restricted machines worthless!
I know, I know, all the manufactures are going this route, but it doesnt make it right, and I have haas's on my floor, not japanese machines.
Their letter:
All Haas turning centers are now equipped with locks on the operator doors and a key switch on the side of the control pendant allowing the selection of a lock/run or unlock/setup mode. Generally, mode selection affects how the machine operates when the door is opened.
This new feature replaces the following settings and parameters within the control:
Setting 51, Door Hold Override
Parameter 57 bit 7, Safety Circuit
Parameter 57 bit 31, Door Stop Sp
Parameter 586, Max Door Open Sp RPM.
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Unfortunately this "crap" is what they call "Occupational Health and Safety" and should you "tamper" with this and then have any kind of accident that results in a serious injury, you WILL be toast!
The manufacturers are doing this to protect Their arse, in the process making the operation of the machine damn difficult for the user.
I so understand where you are coming from, but you are going to find it tough to overcome these operating restrictions.
Goodluck.
The joys of living in a sue happy society. Just a yr. ago they came in my shop and put caution stickers over all the machines. Guess some ppl who shouldn't be running a stapler let alone a turning center, don't know that a rotating chuck going 2000 rpm is dangerous as hell.
I'm working in R&D doing different machines (not CNC though).
The thing is, any machine needs UL/CE etc approvals. Those require safety issues among many many other things. All our machines have interlocks on every door and cover for that reason.
Yes, it sucks for the user but there is no choice.
But, the interlocks are generally very easy to bypass. But the manufacturer will not have any responsibility if someone gets hurt because they have been bypassed. Just my 0.02$
:) Current build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/264838-new-machine-desing-quot-cnm13-quot.html
Yep. Laws changed Jan '10. And most builders are making it harder and harder to bypass. You will be hard pressed to find any machine now that doesn't have the new standards, unless it's a Chinese machine.
I would have to disagree with manufacturers making it harder to bypass. That would be bad for business. Most just make them good enough, so that they pass all approvals needed.Originally Posted by underthetire
I know for a fact that our customers will bypass every machine. Otherwise there would be too much time lost. And in some cases, very hard/impossible to setup/adjust the machine.
The point being, all safety locks should be there and functioning from factory. But if the user alters it, it's on their responsibility. Covers the back of the manufacturer from legal action.
And yes I agree that laws suck and makes things more expensive..
All that makes me think of manual lathes.. They are not protected much if at all. From time to time I read arms being ripped off.
I'm wondering how they could pass any safety approvals. Guess they have none..
:) Current build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/264838-new-machine-desing-quot-cnm13-quot.html
We just cannot legislate ourselves out of stupidity! Whats the next step, no opening or closing of the chuck with the door open?? How about, powering off of the machine to open the door?? Im curious now, will they allow the tail stock to advance with the door open??
This has got to be slowing down the builders sales outlook. At the same time, Ive been pricing out used machines. Are these folks really getting 80 to 90 % of the original selling cost of a 7 to 10 year old machine???? Ive got an 01 SL20, that I paid 54 grand delivered and installed on my floor, along with a few other goodies thrown in, back in 01. Ive have called several used places that have that same machine for sale, asking anywhere from 39k to 49k. I thought the fair market value of that machine would have been upper teens to low 20's. Wouldnt it be great, if we could use these machines for 10 years for free???? Sorry, just venting here!
Gary
The problem is the law.. And people suing..
I heard this story (no idea if it's true or tale but good anyway). Some guy had a big camper van; put the cruise on and went to make some coffee; of course the thing crashed and he got badly hurt. He sued the manufacturer, and got something like a million $. Because the user manual did not say that "cruise will only maintain speed, the driver still needs to drive and make sure it stays on the road".
:) Current build: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cnc-router-table-machines/264838-new-machine-desing-quot-cnm13-quot.html
They keep trying to idiot proof everything... the problem is they keep making better idiots!!
What ever happened to common sense?
Unfortunately...It isn't that common~
Check it out on Snopes.com. It's false.The problem is the law.. And people suing..
I heard this story (no idea if it's true or tale but good anyway). Some guy had a big camper van; put the cruise on and went to make some coffee; of course the thing crashed and he got badly hurt. He sued the manufacturer, and got something like a million $. Because the user manual did not say that "cruise will only maintain speed, the driver still needs to drive and make sure it stays on the road".
I do agree that they should make it possible to run with the doors open. When I'm running a probe cycle in the program, I like to check the location of the tip when it touches on some very small surfaces that you can't see from outside. Other occasions too.
We just ordered a VM-2. Does this have the same issue?
The problems with these laws and those who write them is the unintended consequences. They never consider them or simply fail to see them.
The more you try to protect the idiots from themselves, the dumber the idiots become, and the less they take responsibility for themselves.
It becomes a downward spiral that ends with chaos. Wait for the licensing of operators and the systems to train them etc. It will burden business's in to bankruptcy.
I saw an auction in eBay yesterday for a Haas machining center and there was a telling note to the buyer at the end of the description of the machine. The note said that whoever the truck driver was that came to get the machine was required to be licensed to drive a forklift in the state of-------Michigan!!!! You wonder why the state and Detroit in general is going down the drain in a rapid fashion????
I was once licensed in California. That did not make me better to drive a forklift, just got more money for CAL OSHA.
I am in a small complex here in Florida now and only about 20 people here for various business's. But, we have 6 forklifts here and never any accidents.
Rules do not make safe conditions, people who know that they are responsible for their actions do.
The dumbing down of society and the loss of what used to be "Common Sense" is the result of these rules.
Sorry for the rant----Mike
Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28
The robotics industry is the same way. Robots used to have two "teach" modes, T1 and T2. T1 was limited to 250 mm/sec and is what you must use while safely inside the work area. But you could still use the T2 100% mode to quickly run through the rest of the program, once you're in a safe area away from the workcell.
Well they removed the T2 mode entirely. It was kinda pointless on the smaller robots but you can imagine on the larger ones it will take literally hours to run through a program at such a slow speed. If I ran through the robot program tending my lathe at 250mm/sec it would probably take a good 5 minutes.
Some robots too have system parameters but they're locked out in just the same way as the Haas control is now. Just like the Haas control they went through a period where everybody could change the parameters, but then they realized it was happening and locked out the ability.
At least with a CNC you can tape a penny over the door switches. Can't do it with all types of equipment...
Haas ST-30
I got a HAAS ST-30, 2012 model. I need HELP, I am trying to polish my parts with a 500 or 600 rpm and we all know we cant do that with the door open with 50 rpm's. What parameters do I need to change? I have been running cnc lathe for 16 years and a HAAS SL-30 for 4 years. Now we got this ST-30 and and I cant polish my parts on it....
Mechanical switches are easily "fixed. So fix it. Programming is another issue unto its self.
I agree to having safety switches to a point however, they should be manually allowable for manual over ride. Not all operators are idots.
Guess I'll be upgrading my cnc home machines to a used PRO machine instead of new.
I know this is the lathe forum but we just got a 2012 VF-1 and undid the locks and laid them on top of the machine with the keys in. And then leave the machine in run mode and your good to go. The only time you have to remove the keys is when you do a power up and for us, thats on Monday mornings. Really hasn't been that big of a deal.
I agree and have my machines dummied.
However if an employee gets hurt in them, the millions of dollars in fines will bankrupt the business. Then there will be the personal lawsuits on top of that.
You simply cannot do one-offs behind a locked door.
There is provision in our safety laws to have an engineer write and approve custom procedures for when and how an override system can be used, that would protect from the fines by safety authority and make it all legal.
The provision is that safeguard measures do not render the equipment inoperable for the process required but still allow maximum employee protection.
A factory worker slamming production parts all day needs these safeties
A tool & die maker doing one-offs has the training and skills to get away with out. Manufacturer has to make the machine to max requirements.
www.integratedmechanical.ca
I cannot open the door with the key and the key can only be removed from the lock in the double locked position. At present I have the inside panel off and have R&R'd the lock several times. Totally stumped, any help is appreciated.
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OK, I have to state that when my facility got the first machine with door interlocks (a Fadal mill) it was a pain for the first week, but you learned to function in a way not to operate the machine with the doors open.
The same for the other Fadal, the Doosan 300 lathe and the new Haas ST-10 we ordered. After working with the interlocks on the Doosan for 3 years (can't index the turret with the door open and can't run the spindle at all when it's open), it was only slightly inconvenient to deal with the Haas, which at least has the ability to turn the spindle at some speed with the door open.
With the Haas, it is easy to get around the issue legally, at least ISO certification-wise. Each operator or setup person can be trained as to the safety hazards of working with the door interlocks disabled for setup purposes. Then each operator who is trained can be issued a spare "setup" interlock key (labeled and controlled) to use solely for setting up the machine. After the machine is set up, there is no need for the setup key, it is removed and operation continues without the key.
I am a manufacturing engineer, but I prove out each and every program I write on every single machine I program in the shop. I agree that interlocks provide a bit of inconvenience at the price of increased safety but the inconvenience is minimal once you learn to work with it (not around it).
As far as polishing on a new CNC lathe is concerned, The Haas ST-10 holds tolerances to a tenth and can be programmed to provide finishes in the 16 microinch range. If any new lathe wouldn't do this, I wouldn't buy it. Why would you need to polish? There may be situations, but I would imagine 98% of the time there is no need...
An opinion from one who uses CNC lathes and mills every day...
Oh, and just for a matter of record... I disagree that one-offs can't be done behind locked doors. I do it frequently.
Last edited by grweldon; 05-10-2012 at 12:39 PM. Reason: added material
Yes it will.
Its all in the ANSI B11.22 standards what the builder needs to comply with. In a nutshell, it's not the spindle they are trying to protect against. That is a known hazard, its ANY automatic tool changer. The ANSI also goes on to address different size machines. Very large machines do not require a safety system as found on smaller machines. If there is no automatic tool changer, the regulations are vastly different for guarding. And yes, manual equipment must have chip shields in place for the operator. This includes chuck guards and movable shields on mills/drill presses. Like it or not, its the way it is now. Once you get pass the initial change, and I agree its a PIA, you find ways to work around the door being closed. Once you get comfortable with your modified work technique, its really not that bad.
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