Problem- Something that I worry about

[JROM]

For some time now I have been thinking about the future of our metal working trades. It seems like no one is training kids anymore. I was lucky to serve a four year state apprenticeship and become a tool & die maker. The year I finished only 14 people graduated (1980) and I'm talking Orange county Ca..
There's alot of people here to say the least! I guess what I really wonder about is who is teaching the basic metal working skills? I mean someone tought me how to use and care for a file and I see people all the time using a file like they are playing a violin! The basic skills arn't there anymore and It always seems that the old guy has to rescue the young guy who has painted himself into a corner. I know that CNC machines have taken over. I've been using them since 1985. But when something breaks you got to know how to do things the "old fashoned way". Anyway I would like to hear your thoughts on this subject and also hear about programs that any companys are running to address this problem. I guess I'm just worried that all us old guys will die off and the good old USA will be in big trouble.

Fire away!

[Geof]

Have you looked at any of the other threads on this topic. There was one called 'The Future of the Machinist Trade' or something like that. I tried a search but was not successful in finding it.

You are correct that it is, will be a problem, as us old guys leave the business, and it is not just the US it is happening, or maybe more correctly not happening, here in Canada and in the UK.

In the other threads there was quite a lot of discussion/disagreement about whether the 'old fashioned way' should be taught to young people, and about how young people don't seem to want to buckle down and learn the basics. Often the attitude seems to be I gotta find software that will do everything for me.

Part of the problem I think is wage rates which have stagnated, and even dropped in the last ten or more years. That coupled with the fact that metal working is not looked on as having any status seems to be a disincentive for a lot of people.

[blksmith]

I have to say it is a very sad thing that is happening to our trade. I work for a Hydro rehabilitation Company and a lot of the units we work on were made in the nineteen twenties and thirties. You just can not use a CNC on such equipment. The men who originally did the work used tramels and dividers to lay out the hole patterns. Our whole infrastructure has old equipment like this and there are less and less of us that can work on it.

[thamain1]

I'm one of the "younger" guys, I guess (35). I have been working with CNC for 10 yrs. Programming half of it. I fell into it by chance, I am trained and certified in Aircraft Maintenance, but thanks to the FAA deciding only one guy in the hanger had to have a license and any joe blow could turn a wrench under him opportunities and wages plummeted. I applied for a job with an Auto store as a clerk and ended up in the back grinding crankshafts, turning rotors, etc all because the head moron found out I could read a mic. His bad judgment though was my gain and the start of a lifelong fascination with this art.
I owe everything I have done in my life, for myself and my family, to this trade. I try to learn something new about it, CNC or manual, everyday. It makes me better and more profitable. I know a lot of even younger guys in my shop feel the same way.
Problem is that more and more manufacturing shops would rather work under the misguided illusion that they can pay a single engineer, babbling idiots j/k, to cam out the job and any joe blow, yes him again, can push the green button for scraps.
In the shop I was at before the great one I work in now. Conditions for the "machinist" were terrible. They had the belief that anyone could do our jobs and saw it only as brain dead manual labor, some of the working guys there actually believe that as well.
I could run 3 machines at rate and at a quality above required on third shift. Compared to 1 machine per man at a 15% scrap rate on 1st and 2nd. When I asked for a raise to area standards they laughed and I left for the place I am now.
Point is that even tho it worked out for me there are 10-15 intelligent men still at that other shop, some with a lot of good experience, that are being brow beaten into believing this is a no brain job, not a thinking man's gig if you will. The number of shops with this mentality grows everyday and it spreads like a virus down to the shop floor.
So next time you see that young idiot about to cut his buddies hand off with that 3" facemill spinning at five grand give him a break and a little direction in the correct how to s. Make them understand they are not just button pushing monkeys, but members of a real trade. Then send them up front to ask the jr engineer where the roll of fallopian tube is kept, keeps morons (engineers) out of your hair for hrs.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by thamain1 .....Point is that even tho it worked out for me there are 10-15 intelligent men still at that other shop, some with a lot of good experience, that are being brow beaten into believing this is a no brain job, not a thinking man's gig if you will. The number of shops with this mentality grows everyday and it spreads like a virus down to the shop floor...

This aspect came up several times in the other threads I mentioned, and it is so wrong. These days a good machinist not only needs to know all the old fashioned stuff, or at least a good chunk of it, they also need to be very handy with computers and CAD systems and prattle on about NURBS and spline curves (how in h*ll do you put together a curved spline?).

But there is another side to it, and that is that years ago guys who were really good with the hands on stuff and could intuitively learn stuff, but were hopeless at 'book learning' could have a really good career as a machinist; now they do not have that opportunity.

[Caprirs]

I'm 39 so label me as you see fit.

Things change. If there is something we can rely on, it is the pace at which the world changes. There are countless occupations that are rendered obsolete by time. Sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Reading evil or good into the changes is human nature but often change just means different, nothing more or less.

I fully expect to job hop throughout my life. At no time did I ever expect to have a career doing the same thing until retirement. I have noticed folks older than me by at least a decade do not share that view of life.

It is not limited to trades either. My father is a cardiologist and still practicing. He admits it is impossible to keep up with the medical advances and his practice hires new young docs who already have specific knowledge and training on equipment and procedures. For example, a recent cardiology graduate will not be skilled at procedures from 30 years ago, but he will know how to use the latest machines and the latest procedures.

I agree that there are a lot of people who cannot use a file. Or sharpen a drill (I can't). Or do a great many things that were expected of earlier generations. However, despite the "loss" of "fundamentals" among "machinists", manufacturing keeps getting faster, easier, cheaper, more efficient, and more reliable. So somebody is keeping the knowledge alive and prospering.

[pimpbike]

Originally Posted by Caprirs manufacturing keeps getting faster, easier, cheaper, more efficient, and more reliable. So somebody is keeping the knowledge alive and prospering.

Yeah...the Chinese

[qualitysock]

Hey I just registered to this site today. So hello everyone. Yes things are changing and I've been to 10 different machine shops in 14 yrs. I'm only 38 kinda lucked out in the trade from being in the navy as a aviation machinist mate. (jet mech). The only thing is that I can say is to keep learning I pick things up everyday.. And it helps... I do have one question though if anybody can help. I am drilling a286 hole size is .031 and it's a *****..I'm going 1800rpm with a feed of believe this .45 and a peck of .005 is there anything I'm doing wrong here, what I get about 25 -30 pcs per drill (carbide). If i go with what they recommend (50 sfm) I just burn drills

[dertsap]

the trade will be fine
companies will have no choice but to train young guys and pay them well for it , most of the manual guys tend to be the older fella's who are now retiring or soon to retire , manual machinists will be in large demand very soon , company owners aren t going to throw all their machines into a hole in the ground because the experienced guys are leaving so where does this leave them
as far as technology goes this seems to be the one trade where technology is a curse to so many people . a car from the 30's is cool but i wouldn t want to commute back and forth to work with one or drive cross country with it, modern day cars make it faster and more comfortable .
when i started into the workforce it was impossible to get any type of job without experience , the best i could get was washing dishes ,now the workforce is to the other extreme in Canada there is so much work out there its rediculous , it all has a cycle ,its highs and lows
china will have its day , all the work that went there will come back , and if china continues to mess up everything they make then the work will be coming back sooner than you think ,which will create a huge whirl wind in the manufacturing sectors

[DareBee]

As a shop that does a lot of "service" work, it is imperative to have enough employees who are adept at machining manually.

It is a waste of time to setup and run CNC for most repair work and simple 1-offs. Not to mention that a new 9x42 knee mill can be had for $5k (I wont buy that, but it can) and the same machine CNC'd is $25k (wouldn't buy this 1 either).

Some of the simple stuff comes to mind quickly.
Cutting new keyways, journal repair on mill rollers, facing die bolsters. These are definitely the simpler of the repair machining we have done, but some of it gets really innovative in the setup and machining techniques. IMO the the actual machining procedures are not the issue for skills development either, the #1 skill is workholding/fixturing and #2 is flow planning or order of operations, if you will. It is common to see "a guy" start machining a part then not have anything to hold on for the next operation. Button pushers don't usually develop these skills.

Skills are a very necessary part of metal working.
I agree that a lot of "machine" shops don't have them anymore but these shops are not what I consider machine shops, they are manufacturing facilities designed to run production.
Let these guys keep going in this direction, it only makes more work for guys like me to keep them running and automated.

BTW I am constantly training apprentices both as industrial mechanics and/or toolmaker.