Is It Time For - MACHINISTS LICENSING...?

[cncprofessor]

Yes, I’ve been around long enough to know this is not a very popular topic for discussion, but nonetheless, here it goes.

Yesterday, I visited a small job-shop nearby where we live only to find an owner (let’s call him John) in the office all alone sitting in a chair with obvious anguish on his face. His distress was over the scrap (2 out of 4 die sets) he just discovered on the shop floor from a newly hired “tool & die maker” he had hired at $25/hr. The way he put it, the cost wasn’t the issue as much as was inevitably missing the delivery date for a new customer and the possible impact this may have on his future business relations.

John further vented that he is dumbfounded with what’s been going on in the industry over the years, particularly with present day job seekers who lack the training and experience for anything more serious than to “push a button” under the pretense of being machinists and even Tool & Ddie/Moldmakers.

John was trained as a machinist and inherited his Tool & Die job-shop, presently with six employees only (from 24 just a few years nback) from his family who has been in this business for generations. He has reached the point of asking himself if the time is right, in view of everything that’s been going on in the US mfg. industry, to establish some certification program where people can prove their training and particular trade-skills experience and be 'licensed' accordingly to seek employment in the respective field. In his opinion, that would identify skilled machinists, Tool & Die makers from those “wannabe” machinists in today’s job market.

When I asked John what he would pay for such a “licensed” machinist in his shop, he gave me a stern look and said for him the question of money is not an issue including fringe benefits. Even at the present competitive shop rate he would be far better off paying more for a licensed, skilled employee than paying less and dealing with the cost of scrap and everything else that goes with it! But, in the same breath of air, John said, and I quote, "I know, it’s considered un-American to expect this to happen in my life time.” When I asked why, he simply answered – "that’s just the way it is".

I left John’s shop in a pretty somber mood myself wondering what he was trying to say with –“that’s just the way it is” (?!).

[laszlozoltan]

John didn't ask for or check references ? who forced John to hire the guy- local mafia ?

[miljnor]

Ya lets get an overdeveloped money sucking government to license another profession so we can see more jobs move overseas!

Sounds good!

Just because some stupid government agency licenses someone or gives them a Ph.d. in anything doesn't necessarily make them smart or even proficient at what the license or degree is in.

I've aced licensing exams in fields that i have no interest or business doing, just thought it would be interesting to see how good the standards of that field were. Needless to say they weren't.

John just needs to be a bit more careful about how he checks potential employees. And even then its a crap shoot.

[cncprofessor]

laszlozoltan:

In the US, unfortunately, some of the references are unreliable (due to the liability potentials)!

[Geof]

I think the type of thing Machinists do is so wide ranging you would not fit it into a single license category.

I think Trade licenses are really only applicable in field were there are specific codes and regulations, such as electrical, gas fitting, plumbing, that the tradesman must display knowledge of.

[Gary55Ford]

How would you determin who would be qualified for a license? I'm a self taught machinist ,I've been doing it for 24years.

[cncprofessor]

Gary55Ford:
Nothing wrong by being self taught.

Now, how to determine the level of machinist’s competency? Perhaps by both written as well as hands-on tests (?!).

[Geof]

Originally Posted by cncprofessor ...Now, how to determine the level of machinist’s competency? Perhaps by both written as well as hands-on tests (?!).

First you have to define, rigorously, what you mean by "machinist". Only then can you design tests to determine a "machinist's" competency.

[dertsap]

we have a few button pushers who have completed an apprenticeship and on paper are ticketed machinists , these guys are only capable of loading a part and pushing cycle start , ive seen it many times ,far too many , and all in different companies.
i am not ticketed nor do i ever plan on being ticketed , i am far from impressed by what ive seen out of most of these ticketed guys . in my eyes experience talks the rest doesn t mean jack , and the experience shows even on the first day as a guy approaches the machine and enquires as to the job at hand

bottom line is a guys true colours show pretty quickly , and until then that person should NOT be trusted with critical or prized jobs until they proove they are worthy of it .it is not a good judgement call to let someone who the company is unsure of be left in a position that can hurt the company

[laszlozoltan]

adding to that, John inheirted the job-shop; and has proceded to run a sucessful business into the ground; somehow he expects to have people who are skilled at their jobs while he himself seems to be lacking in that capacity. who is to blame ? the hopeful applicant who needs a job and is willing to attempt something that is beyond capability, or the man who hires him and unproven, puts him in a position to ruin his company? what about the other employees, who depend on John to do his job, run his business properly in order to maintain theirs ? I would far rather see a business certificate of some sort hanging in the mangers office than a machinists certificate hanging over a co-workers toolbox.

[Delw]

Geof makes a good point on the licencing

Heres a simple solution, it will weed out most people. it worked for us for years.

when you hire someone give them one week (maybe 2 if they show potential) to prove they know what they are doing.
stick them on a hand mill and a hand lathe. take any part simple or not doesnt make any difference. give them specific dimensions. give them access to the inspection department.
Make sure they have to tilt the heads, use an indexer the whole nineyards. give them a block of alum and let them have a go at it.

if they cant make the part in a week they are not worth having in your shop. I don't care if they are a programmer , button pusher, set-up guy what have you. If you can't run a manual machine they just are not worth it especially programers and set-up guys.

While some guys say this is harsh or a waste of time, if a Machinist can't run manual machines how the heck do you think they are going to run 100k cnc machines safely? its like turning a 5 year old loose with a bunch of buttons that make different sounds. Anyone Yes including a 5 year old can be a button pusher, anyone can program using the latest cnc software. but if you don't know what the actual out put is and how its done (basically using your brain and some common sence) its just not worth it.

machine shops and cnc machines have gotten to the point were they just hire bodies to push the pretty green button , it doesnt take a rocket scientist to do this, it only takes and index finger. in doing so bigger machine shops have created and bunch of DUMB people ( don't mean any disrespect but you get the point) so now we have more button pushers who say they are machinist that can only push a button and load a part.

my oldest 17 has been around machines shops sence she was born, she is very smart, extreamly smart. when she was 10-14 she could be turned loose and run parts all day( on a hitachi lathe) even change inserts and program the machine through the multi seike control. Unfortunatly she hit her teens and dads place isnt cool anymore. Of coarse she had the advantage of dad have a place with machines so she pretty much grew up doing it. My other daughter is 7 she's even smarter, I am starting to teach her how to use a cadcam system and read prints. Her first program will probally be dora or sponge bob engravement LOL.

Del

[miljnor]

Delw, your the man

I agree with your assessment.

I Mostly higher button pushers but I need at least 1-2 REAL machinists a shift to cover everyone, and i do something similar to what you've suggested. Its really the only way to be sure.