Use Machine Shop vs. Buying Machine

[excelerate]

I was at the machine show to look at what cnc lathes were around and at what price. a haas teach lathe and a number of others were on display. the price was around the $55k to $70k range (chinese inc) i didnt see any under that. (im looking for 1.5m between centre 400mm swing or there abouts) 20k seems a great price. especialy as we are all new to cnc a cheap entry is what i think is desirable. once the machine is proven its worth we would be in a better position to extend capability with a better (more expensive) machine/machines are lathes moro expensive than vmcs? ill have to look up fadal.

have not put a submition to the boss yet. have a meeting on the 20th to see if i can convince them is a proposition worth consideration.

[RGeo]

I believe CNC lathes are more expensive than CNC vertical machining centers generally.

I had a conversation recently with a machine tool salesman who told me about the deal on a brand new Fadal VMC w/o covers for +$20k. I know if you go to Haas’s website their smaller machines list for around $40k with covers, but I understand that if you are willing to be flexible and buy what is more readily available you can usually get decent discounts. Personally concerning a lathe, I would look for a used, something 1999-2004. You should be able to get something less than $35k easily.

Also check out auction houses such as www.hilcoind.com. I know they are having an auction that contains several lathes on June 21st. They will not tell you what items sell for unless you are part of the bidding process. One way to get a feel for the prices is to either attend an auction, participate online, or via phone.

You can always look at e-bay, but I have found that most sellers are asking fairly top dollar for used CNC equipment in the auctions themselves. Instead look further down the list, below the auctions at the e-bay stores. These sellers usually seem to be more realistic.

Beware of rigging and shipping costs when buying used. Even if you are buying from within your same state you could spend between $3k to $10k for rigging and shipping. Sometimes you can negotiate these costs out with a new purchase.

[excelerate]

I had considerd the second hand route, but i am taking a large personal risk with this idea!!!!!! The guys I work with don't see the benefit of new tech. The old "we have always done it that way" applies. Most have worked in the one co for life or on average 17 years. Change is not always recieved well. New management however, in the last 12 months has been trying to change hearts and minds. The problem is they dont have practical experence and rely on us to solve problems (fitters). I have dealt with a lot of contractors in my past job with cnc so I have an idea of what they can do but no hands on. With a second hand machine I just don't know what I'm looking at; condidion/ wear/function etc.
I'm thinking new as I would get install/set up/training/back up and hopefully
don't end up with a white elephant and get the "I told you so" from the guys "way to blow $35k we told you to buy a manual machine" (and keep my job). Management seems to be supportive of any new ideas, we are a mid size co and do have some money to invest in new equipment but in the past maintence has had no new investment and is pretty run down but, you gotta start somewhere.

[RGeo]

I would seriously consider Haas machines. They are among the cheapest to purchase and they have a huge presence in the U.S., Mazak may be second. Mazak is a more robust machine, a feature which you will pay for.

I will try and save you some hassle by giving you the normal pro’s and con’s you would hear among machinists:

The press you will hear concerning Hass usually like this:

Haas machines are to light.
To which I would reply. It depends on what you are doing with the machine. If you are taking off large cuts and still trying to maintain superior accuracy. Yes Hass being a medium weight machine will fall short relative to a heavier machine.

Haas uses linear rails instead of boxed ways, (referring to the bearing surfaces of the axes).
To which I would reply. Linear ways themselves do not make a negative difference in performance. It’s usually due to the fact that lighter machines often use linear rails in lieu of boxed ways. So this point usually goes back to argument #1. I personally see a major benefit in using linear rails over boxed ways. You can replace a linear rail with an off the shelf part and it’s a fairly straight forward operation. Boxed ways although they may last 25% longer will have to be reworked, which is an expensive and laborious process, and one for only a career machine rebuilder to tackle.

The benefits are: variety, price, service and support.
Variety: They have machining centers (cnc mills) and turning centers (cnc lathes), both in a variety of sizes.
Price: they are known for being on the low end of the price spectrum. Let your dealer know that you are very price concise and find a worthy competitor to help create an atmosphere of competition consequently you should do much better than list price. You may also decide to buy a more stripped down unit to get better pricing. Also don’t overlook the preowned route, for which you can still get support and training.
Service: Look at their website and see the list price of standard repairs, pretty impressive.
Support: See the website, they are the #1 in sales and therefore have a number of support options where smaller companies with comparably priced machines will not.

There are a number of other things to consider, I would begin talking to at least three dealers. Go to the Haas website, and maybe Fadal and Mazak. Find dealers in your area for each. These dealers will likely carry other brands as well. You should have lots of options using this method.

I think you are looking for both a machine center and a turning center. It would serve you best to go with the same brand of controller on both, this will help shorten the learning curve and if the actual machines are the same brand, you will likely get better pricing as well.