Mazak

[jackson]

I was just wondered if anyone else noticed there are more used mazak's on the market than almost any othe machine. Just one of the used machine dealers that send me e-mails always has alot of them. Is it because shops are upgrading to new ones or is there another brand that is replacing them? I pesonly dont have any and wont, but alot of people say there the best thing since sliced bread.Maybe it just seems there are alot.

[jackson]

Well i guess thats why i buy daewoo LOL.

[notallhere]

Mazak want one? We are looking to get a real turning center or old T1 is a pain. Boards fry servo, alarms, and just plain wont do what we need it to 27 minutes to turn out a small coupler cant run it over 550 RPM or it alarms out.
Go with something else!

[samco]

they seem solid - just update them.

http://wiki.linuxcnc.org/cgi-bin/emcinfo.pl?MazakRetro
http://webpages.charter.net/bengvall...onversion.html

sam

[cdlenterprises]

Mazatrol is to CNC what windows is to DOS - just a warm fuzzy interface that uses lots of stuff that you don't need to do the same job that hard code can do.
I've used a few, and while they do have their good points(some nice canned cycles, easy to learn) I'm g-code(or EIA as the mazak guys say) all the way. If you know g-code I wouldn't bother with them.

[jackson]

Mazatrol is to CNC what windows is to DOS - just a warm fuzzy interface that uses lots of stuff that you don't need to do the same job that hard code can do.
I've used a few, and while they do have their good points(some nice canned cycles, easy to learn) I'm g-code(or EIA as the mazak guys say) all the way. If you know g-code I wouldn't bother with them.

I'm with you, on the G code i have ran a couple mazaks and they just arnt my prefrence, and that is kinda why i was wondering why it seemed like there was quite a few used ones on the market, are people getting rid of them are they just up grading to new ones

[psychomill]

Mazatrol is to CNC what windows is to DOS - just a warm fuzzy interface that uses lots of stuff that you don't need to do the same job that hard code can do.

Poor analogy in my opinion....

There's a huge market for conversational controls. Not just Mazak's either. Many OEMs use them or have them available and yes, some are better than others. On a lathe, Mazatrol is the way to go. You can program and start running a part in a fraction of time that it would take to G-code... or EIA as you say. Which, by the way, EIA is not a Mazak terminology. EIA/ISO are the "standards" for G-coding (just clearing that up).

We are looking to get a real turning center or old T1 is a pain.

I would certainly hope that you would give machine centers (all, not just Mazak) a better chance of representation than that. Sounds like you've got a dinosaur. This would be like saying... "you know, my '63 Cadillac just doesn't get very gas mileage. The exhaust leaks, oil leaks, piston is slapping... I'll never buy another GM product again."

...and that is kinda why i was wondering why it seemed like there was quite a few used ones on the market...

Like most used machinery, this could be a mix of things. Mazak has sold a ton of machines. Many are traded out for newer models, sold for newer models, sold because somebody didn't like them, etc. They are (in general), good iron and last a awhile. As well, their are many looking to "upgrade" their existing machine technology. So the used market for Mazaks is huge. Along with these though, the older dinosaurs get sold as "solid" machines. But as with any used equipment, whether its a Mazak or any other machine tool, be sure to check them over carefully. Mazaks sell almost just by name alone in the used market. Because of that, many people get fried by the dealer on one and get sold junk.

[jackson]

Well maybe its just me i pretty much look at all the machines mostly the Daewoos but there is alway 5 to 15 more mazaks than any other, Now that is just this one site so im sure it is different other places.

[psychomill]

Not necessarily Jackson. You do have to consider demand versus volume (quantity sold) versus "purchasing price" power. At one time, Mori Seiki dominated the used market over many others.... and all for the same basic reasons. Going back further, you had Cinci, Carltons, G&L, etc. Depending on the region, you may see more Toshiba or Kits for example. It all boils down to "what sells" and whether or not its still "running". And I use "running" loosely. Mazaks are a hot commodity. Therefore, many used dealers will jump at aquiring one through trade-ins or auction. The condition of it becomes near irrelevant because they know they can sell it. The problem is, the machine may really be junk or limping. Its no different than your typical "used car salesman" stereotype. Some good ones... a lot of junk. Bad part, people begin to associate their purchase with the actual reliability of a new machine from the OEM.

Also, consider this. Many high end machines were purchased by large shops. For quite some time, people believed that they couldn't "afford" one. But when these large shops by machines, they'll buy them by the dozens over a short period of time. And thats dozens of one particular type. Consider that they may have a dozen different machine types. They might have one building with over 100 spindles. On top of that, they might have several buildings that are similar in volume. Now, many of these large shops have a life span set for a machine center. I've worked at several where nothing was kept for more than 5 years. We then cycled them out for the newer models. Some equipment may hang around a little longer. Some equipment were cycled out early due to product change, volume shift for particular machine types or something better came out for a particular machine process. Many of these machines goes to the "used dealers". The condition varies greatly depending on its maintenance and hours of use and just plain how much pounding it took running 24/7. This causes a large flow of used equipment on the market.

Another aspect... Economy. Many shops just bought their new "high end machines with all the bells and whistles" at around the turn of the century or shortly there after. Then, the bottom fell out. Shops closed up, shops had to sell equipment to stay open, the jobs/volume got small so the added machine cost couldn't be justified, etc. etc. This caused more machines on the market....

[Newby2]

Bear in mind, with the tax laws, most companies can amortize the purchase of a new machine for 5 years. Write it off so to speak. After that, the machine becomes an asset so other writeoffs must be found.
Managing 3 Mazak turning centers with Mazatrol T plus, everything is there for the manufacture of turned parts. One doesn't need a CAM program. Tool path, simulation, and other features are included.
As with libraries, dictionarys, and math, they have been replaced with internet, spell check, and calculators. So conversational programming is replacing G- code programming.
Machines are constantly evolving, as society is, and if we are reluctant to evolve with them, then we will be forced to spend more time (money) programming than we do turning chips.
Steve

[cdlenterprises]

There are, however, some contours that CAN'T be cut with MAZATROL programming. We had some Mazak horizontals in a firearms plant and some of the contours couldn't be programmed with Mazatrol because there was no way to "converse" with the control. We ended up having to profile it in MasterCAM (g-code, imagine that) and basically lie to the machine control to get it to work.
BTW, the setup man was a former apps engineer for Mazak, so it's not like he didn't know Mazatrol. It may be great for lathes, but I do 95% of my g-code lathe programming longhand at the machine anyway (I just love those canned cycles)

[psychomill]

There are, however, some contours that CAN'T be cut with MAZATROL programming

And I will agree with this. Especially with the older Mazatrol controls. This improved with newer generation stuff. Even the Fusion has some limits (very little). However, with the Matrix control now, you can import models to cut on in Mazatrol. I haven't done any yet but its supposed to eliminate many of the previous surfacing issues.

Of course, for me, it wouldn't matter anyway. I've always programmed Mazak mills in G code. Always had better control of the cuts that way and better cycle times. On a lathe though... thats a whole different ball game.