In way over my head

[protrxrptr17]

I joined this site awhile back when I was trying to land a job that is really not relevant to the present. I ended up buying a small machine and welding shop in a very small town. I have a Werkzuegmaschinenfabrik (seriously, that is the name of it, I might have spelled it wrong) lathe and a Van Norman 26 SU mill, along with various other tools. I had no machining experience to speak of. The man I bought the shop from was going to help me, but he had a stroke a few days before the deal was done that left him paralyzed on his left side. I found two ancient books in the shop that I use as references when I'm having problems. I guess I'm doing pretty good for myself. There is a sawmill in my town that keeps me going. I bore sprockets and hubs, broach keyways, cut keyways in shafts, thread shafts, just your basic stuff. I just feel like there is so much I don't know. Any ideas on what I should do for more education? I don't have time to go to a community college or anything like that. Is there some online courses I can take to help me? I took some online CNC programming courses way before I jumped into this, and I wish I could find some basic manual machining courses that were setup the same way. Seems like I'm starting at the top and coming down. I wish I could have started as a helper first. I don't have enough work to hire a real machinist to teach me. Which leads to my next question. What about getting into production work? I know how to write CNC programs by hand. Can a small shop with a single vertical machine see any profits? I need something steadily working to supplement what I already have. Thanks for any replies at all. From lurking here, I see that there are some very wise and experienced people who could give a greenhorn like me some good advice.
Zeb Beard
Zeb's Welding & Machine, Warren Arkansas

[NC Cams]

A business partner did something like that and his situation got better and then got much worse. Reason: poor ability to prioritze and poorer ability to properly plan and execute a job.

Among your efforts to GET work, you MUST find a way to do the work right THE FIRST TIME. This is critical as your business is exceptionally critical to bad decisions with regard to doing work incorrectly. The last thing you can afford to do right now is to do work over and over as opposed to doing it right the first time.

Once you get a reputation for doing GOOD work the first time, you'll develop a bit of customer loyalty. THis will also create time for you to look for more work from other clients and so on and so forth.

You can also use the time to learn new skills and or get involved with CNC programming.

If your machine shop is totally manual based and are doing any repetitive work, you NEED to have a small CNC mill. Not only does this free up more time but it also frees up your shop for small production work.

You can't just jump in due to expense and the time involved to learn how to do things. Buy you can't not get invovled. It isn't easy to take the steps to get invovled with CNC but it is one that you really need to do especially in today's machine shop business environment.

[Chris64]

I'd like to hear the answer to this one too. I'm just so fascinating in metal working that I would love to justify a nice shop that could support itself.

It sounds like you are doing pretty well so far. My suggestion would be: What can you do really good now or what work converts to cash easiest? Find your niche and focus your energy on that. Craigslist...ebay...whatever. Advertise...but track your response! Magazine ads are notorious for not producing the results they claim (or having the circulation they claim either).

Side story; Sometimes niches are everything. I know a guy who specializes in printing wine bottle labels and makes a killing...it's nothing any printer couldn't do (in fact, most of which would do for less)...he just targets a niche market very well.

Good luck.

[Halfnutz]

So you have a manual mill and lathe right? Ive never seen a Van Norman but I dont think they were CNC machines.....

Build yourself a nice plasma/router gantry type machine with information off this site, and start learning, I geusse. At least that way you can have a little background behind you before you sink 20 grand or more into a VMC. You can learn or get up to a reasonable speed with one of the plasma machines and it will definately help you on the welding side of the business.

If you got the money its not an issue, but if not, thats what I would do. You could have a nice plasma table that can double as a wood/aluminum cutting and engraving or sign making machine for probably less than 5 grand and another grand for software.

Is there local industry to support a VMC purchase? Finding work can become a nightmare if you dont know where to look and youve got a big lease or loan to pay off. Getting up to speed will take quite a bit of time I imagine. I would poke around here for a while first, check out all of your options. If your willing to drive and pick up an older mill somewhere eBay has some incredible deals but they usually require upgrading.

Hang around and glean all you can, this is the best free education in the field you can get. Get some books, download some of the demo software,figure out a reasonable plan that wont sink your ship, check out eBay for used equipment regularly and be patient. Like NC said you cant afford not to do something, but be carefull. Good luck!

[kinggt4]

Zeb,

A good, easy read book on tips & tricks for manual machining is "Machine Shop Trade Secrets" by James A. Harvey. The plasma CNC route is good as it complements your current business capabilities and would give you some CNC experience before moving to a VMC. Be prepared to work your butt off. When I started in business, I made sales calls and travelled during the normal business day and did the work at night. When your volume gets to a positive cash flow point, hire someone and keep selling.....

George

[DJ1978]

Zeb,
Sounds like you really jumped in with both feet!!!
It is good that your are actually taking in work.
In the old days... the teaching method for milling was put in a cutter... turn it up a notch... turn it up a notch... turn it up a notch... BANG(broken cutter)..
Turn it down a notch and run it!!! LOL!
You did not mention the types of material you are machining or the type of tooling you are using. That makes a difference.
With the manual lathe, you do have to expriment with the material y ou have and the cutting tools you are using. Insertable Carbide tooling has allowed us to push manual machines harder than ever before.
Developing a feel for spindle RPM and feeds is critical to your sucess.
Same on the mill. High speed tooling compared to Carbide or inserted carbide tooling is a world apart. And again it depends on the type of material and the shape of the part as to how to machine it and how hard you can push it.
There is a world of info available to read on the subject. Just google machining. BUT... it sounds like you need some hands on help ASAP. You could try to find a retired machinist in your area that might be willing to give you some instruction or even come in and help out on a part time basis.
You would benefit from a Community college basic machining course. You just need to buy out the time to do that. Usually it is only one day a week. Or at night.
Hope this helps get you started...
Ask specific questions to get specific answers. Post pictured to help describe the help you need. I am sure you will get plenty of help.
Dan

[Verfur]

Zeb,

do not forget that there are local librays with realy nice books and The old trusted machinest handbook should be in every shop. The jump in approach is the most costly way of learning but usaly you wind up learning more in the long run.

Remeber the first things you need to now before you even turn on the machine is can I hold the part solid and locate it on the machine then comes what type of cutters, feed,and speeds.

Hum is there a nother shop in the area that you could do some part time in and get some more hands on. Look in the oil feild buisness right now they need all the help they can get at the present time.

John

[widgitmaster]

Here in Florida, there is an organization of retired business professionals (Old Farts) who assist new and small businesse's get a grasp on best procedures and concepts!

I guess what I'm trying to say is hire an O'l toolmaker to assist or manage the shop for you on a part time basis, while you get out and sell your businesse's abilities! Look for long running repettive jobs, and master them one at a time!

I have known many people who started small businesses in their garages part time with a turrett lathe, and have grown to million dollar corporations! The small parts are best, as you don't need large expensive tooling, and the reppetition will only require an opperator, not the 40-year experience of a toolmaker! These type of parts will ensure a steady cash flow, and then it's up to your accounting and business skills to manage propperly!

With a handfull of small repettive jobs, you will then be able to expand with newer, faster machines! Hope this helps!

Eric

[l u k e]

Lots of video rentals here on machining. Check around the site there is more than what is in the link.

Techanical video rentals>> http://smartflix.com/index.php?main_...x&cPath=115_13

[drachir8]

Originally Posted by DJ1978 In the old days... the teaching method for milling was put in a cutter... turn it up a notch... turn it up a notch... turn it up a notch... BANG(broken cutter).. Turn it down a notch and run it!!! LOL!

That is how learned too.

[doanwannapickle]

Zeb,
It's tough to even know where to begin so let's start at the beginning of your post.
>I ended up buying a small machine and welding shop in a very small town.
This may be the best thing you have going for you. A town this small seldom needs a high degree of sophistcation and probably has little competition.
>I had no machining experience to speak of.
Yikes. At least you have nerve and the will to try to make a go of it. You'll need it. As someone who is newly self-employed, you'll find that you only have to work half days------and you can pick any 12 hours that you like. ;-)
>I found two ancient books in the shop that I use as references when I'm having problems.
Hang on to those, like math some things never change. But, you really do need to get something a bit more current. Back when I was teaching at my local university, here's the text that I used: http://books.mcgraw-hill.com/getbook...7228&template=
There may be better texts out there but this one is very good. It can be found used on Amazon.
Here's the welding text I used: http://www.amazon.com/Welding-Princi.../dp/1401810462
It's not worth what they are asking for it but learning to get good with your welder could be your salvation in your small market.
>There is a sawmill in my town that keeps me going. I bore sprockets and hubs, broach keyways, cut keyways in shafts, thread shafts, just your basic stuff.
Perfect. Just the sort of thing you need to learn on. Always be up front with your customers, don't try to oversell yourself. If the town is that small they already know that you don't know jack anyway. Always try to get feedback from them on how you can make it better.
>I just feel like there is so much I don't know.
I've been at it for 40 years and I still feel that way and I'm absolutely correct. Don't lose that feeling and you'll keep trying to improve.
> Any ideas on what I should do for more education?
How about contacting internet forums? You've made a very good start on that but there are lots more out there. Google machining forum and machine shop forum.
>Is there some online courses I can take to help me?
I think you can get just as much out of online forums and self study as you could with an online course. It would be different if you had the time to go to a brick and morter where you could get actual hands on training.
>What about getting into production work?
Excellent idea if you can find it. It's a nice way learn to maximize your machining processes. Ask you current clients. Network as much as you can.
>Can a small shop with a single vertical machine see any profits?
Yes, but it's tough.

Additional reading: Modern Machine shop. Subscribe to it (it's free) and read iit from cover to cover, including (especially) the ads. Get catalogs from suppliers and read them as well.

Remember: RPM=4*CS/DIA

Regards,
Walter Wallace
Wallace Tool & die

[ZipSnipe]

Hey Zeb, much luck with your venture. I agree with Widgit , get ya an old machinist, see if maybe he,ll work part time just enough to where you can learn tricks of the trade. As for production work, it would be nice if ya could move the shop close to a manufacturer or business park. The place where I,m located at has two manufacturers close by(they drive forklifts over and steal our bottled water) but the point is they(the customers) like the close convience. Just something to think about.