Which is best way to learn machining?

[Astonlee]

By using a CNC machine or by coming from a Manual machine to a CNC?

I think if you start your training by using manual machines, as you develop a far greater natural understanding of the machining process. You do not get this this same instinctive feeling for what happening at the sharp end with a CNC machine.

[anand76767]

yes you are right, start with conventional machine and learn cnc side by side by distinguishing the way of working , pl use the process planning while using conventional as well as cnc.

[FemmeMachinist]

I think both at the same time because CNC knowledge is usually more in demand (when looking for employment) than just Manual Machining skills are. Maybe that's just because I learned CNC first and then was taught the Manual Machining more in detail as I went along....CNCs are intimidating to some people so I think getting comfortable on a CNC makes you more likely to be comfortable on virtually any manual machine.

[Delw]

Anyone can push buttons and load parts even a 6 year old.
few can run a hand lathe or hand mill properly.

you want to learn machining you start with manuals, you want to learn to push buttons start with cnc, button pushers wont go anywere or learn very much nor are they machinist.

I'll get killed for this one.
same thing with programmers if they cant run a manual know feeds and speeds they DONT BELONG behind a PC programming a machine.
anyone can draw pretty pictures and with the software out today anyone can program, but you STILL need machine experiance to apply them to machining.

We have very little skilled people in the USA unlike before the 80s, now we only have people who only know how to push the green button and run when they need to push the red button.

One of my biggest pet peeves is people think they are machinist cause they can push a button or program cad/cam stuff. but they can't figure out how to take a 3/8" endmill and cut a blank to make it 6 inchs long

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Delw .....I'll get killed for this one.....

I did years ago when I went on at greater length in the same manner.

It would be possible to learn enough just on CNC machines to become an acceptable programmer/operator. Provided you take the time to learn manual G-coding and calculating your own speeds and feeds and choosing efficient toolpaths and operation sequencing. In this way you will be far more effective when using CAD/CAM.

But to be a machinist, manual or CNC, you need to know properties of materials and simple aspects of metallurgy such as hardening, annealing, normalizing, so that you know how different materials behave under a cutter. This type of stuff can be learned better on manual machines where you get tactile feedback telling you how the machine is performing.

[Delw]

Originally Posted by Geof This type of stuff can be learned better on manual machines where you get tactile feedback telling you how the machine is performing.

exactly, nothing like burning up inserts, or pulling parts out of a machine to tell you , you messed up LOL.
I learned the hardway as no one really showed me crap when I first started, I was stuck on a hand lathe and hand mill and had one kid that was willing to show, but due to layoffs most of the older guys didnt show anything or help. so me and this one kid pretty much learned from one another.
funny cause when the lay offs came He and I were left the others got the boot.

My first cadcam system was written by me, using a cad program for building house's on a amiga 1000 back in 89-89" and a small basic program to extract the endpoints.
it was nothing more than copy and pasting end points and inserting gcode. it worked fine but slow.


Delw

[Geof]

Originally Posted by FemmeMachinist ......CNCs are intimidating to some people so I think getting comfortable on a CNC makes you more likely to be comfortable on virtually any manual machine.

I hadn't read this in detail earlier. In my experience many old school machinists, highly skilled on manual machines, are intimidated by CNC machines. Which is something of a reverse situation to this comment.

[FemmeMachinist]

Originally Posted by Geof I hadn't read this in detail earlier. In my experience many old school machinists, highly skilled on manual machines, are intimidated by CNC machines. Which is something of a reverse situation to this comment.

Yes, I have seen *some* people who are that way as well. I can't really say what is the "best" way to learn, since I don't teach machining like I'm sure many people here do, but I was just speaking for myself.

I'd guess that the idea of just handing over control to a computer (so to speak) for a manual machinist is rather uncomfortable at first.

When I started on CNC Machines, I had used (unrelated) manual machinery in passing in the shop (like Centerless Grinders and Saws and such) and went right to CNC before using any manual drilling/milling equipment. I had never even manually countersinked a part before working on a CNC, so I suppose I did learn in reverse.

[christinandavid]

I can imagine that, to a manual machinist of many years, closing the guard on a CNC and having no handle to hold onto is the equivalent of driving blind with no brakes or steering wheel.

All the best machinists have a lot of manual experience. It is most useful for choosing the correct order of processes to achieve the required standard, and diagnosing symptoms caused by cutting issues/conditions.

The best programmers are the ones who hardwired their brains that way on their home computers long before they discovered the manufacturing applications of it...

DP

[bsharp]

I think it all depends on the person. Most old time tool makers have a hard time with CNC as the strategy of making the part is quite different at times and it is hard to teach old dogs new tricks. You also have the Button pushers that never actually gain the initiative to learn anything about the actual work being done inside the machine. The thing is the world needs more button pushers and handle spinners than technologists.

[Hennessy]

Well to be honest the best way to learn is what works for you. But that being said I have found that my manual skills are far more useful than just knowing how to run a cnc. I have bailed myself out of more jams with tricks I learned on a manual mill and lathe than I can count. Also cnc seems to have a stigma attached to it. I cant tell you how many times I have gotten the "Well thats not that hard.... the computer does it all for you any way" from some one who has no idea what I just did, and that same person is floored when I make the simplest lathe part. I think it all comes down to the fact that any one can push the green button.... but when the the poo hits the fan a true Machinist can still get the part made.

Besides the most fun I have ever had machining was running a manual lathe that was 2x as old as I am. There is something about taking 1.0" off an OD in a pass, and then realizing that the machine can take more..... If you don't learn how to turn handles and flip leavers I would say you are really missing out!!!

Hennessy

[FemmeMachinist]

Originally Posted by Hennessy Well to be honest the best way to learn is what works for you. But that being said I have found that my manual skills are far more useful than just knowing how to run a cnc. I have bailed myself out of more jams with tricks I learned on a manual mill and lathe than I can count. Also cnc seems to have a stigma attached to it. I cant tell you how many times I have gotten the "Well thats not that hard.... the computer does it all for you any way" from some one who has no idea what I just did, and that same person is floored when I make the simplest lathe part. I think it all comes down to the fact that any one can push the green button.... but when the the poo hits the fan a true Machinist can still get the part made. Besides the most fun I have ever had machining was running a manual lathe that was 2x as old as I am. There is something about taking 1.0" off an OD in a pass, and then realizing that the machine can take more..... If you don't learn how to turn handles and flip leavers I would say you are really missing out!!! Hennessy

Oh, hey John! How have you been?

Anyone with sense knows that a person who thinks "the computer does it all for you" is nothing close to a Machinist of any kind. Those are just people who like to slapfight about the different types of machining (manual vs cnc) and/or don't know anything about either one. *Sorta like people who have Iphone vs Blackberry nerd-battles*

Both take skill, both take mechanical understanding, both take patience and intelligence (the machining, not the nerd-battles).

A computer does not read your prints, understand the way things are machined in your particular shop, create your set-up and workholding, prepare your tooling, know the minor differences between your machine/controls and machine B, D, and E, magically fix all unseen problems, and certainly does not allow you to just "push a button" and have a shiny, new, perfect part pop out like a magical toaster.

It seems that some people equate "CNC Machinist" with "Machine Operator who has no other duties/knowledge/responsibilities/skills".

I've never seen a shop that doesn't require manual machining skills/duties along with CNC duties, but perhaps that is because I hate and try to avoid large shops (except for one and I learned my lesson from that one) and opt for the smallest job-shops I can find where pretty much everyone has to be able to perform operations, set-up, know your formulas for things like RPM and Feed, compensation, leads, tooling, inspection, at least some programming, and the manual machining need to either prep or finish the part for the next operation and/or inspection.