CNC Machine Ratings

[Posimech]

I haven't been on this site too often, but I am interested in opinions on various CNC Mill and Lathe builders. Is there any place to find a "Consumer Reports" type of ratings for machine tools? If not, is there a forum specifically for discussing opinions and supporting data about different machines?

My reason for this review should be obvious, but here is our rough history. We are a small job shop and like many, we struggle to remain competitive. We've had excellent experience buying top shelf machines (Mori-Seiki, Okuma, OKK, Miyano (1 problem Miyano), Tsugami). Three times we purchased lower tier machines (Bridgeport CNC's, Daewoo CNC lathe) with disappointing results.

Buying the top shelf machines comes with high monthly payments, so the answer is not simply to keep buying them. We lost a lot of work trying to compete our Mori SV50 against competition with a smaller Haas. Still, my guys talk me out of buying Haas or Korean machines based on the reputation of having potential problems.

We are now shopping for a live tool lathe and the price range is very wide. We can't afford to make a mistake with such a big purchase.

If there are no specific forums for the above information, I'll take any feedback from people with good or bad experiences on any CNC Mills or Lathes.

[christinandavid]

Have noticed that some guys swear by machine tool builders that others consider complete junk, opinions can vary wildly depending on location (nationality), installation and after-sales technical support, as well as how the machine is treated and what is expected of it in terms of accuracy/rigidity.

From an operators perspective I would say you look at the machines/controls you have - get the opinion of the guys running them, and see how this may relate to your next purchases.

Efficiency, flexibility and support from machine tool builders can be achieved by working towards a fleet of like-for-like machines/controls. The first place I worked had a dozen Haas horizontal lathes various sizes. The milling section was mix of Haas and various with Heidenhain control. Once a guy had been trained/job programmed it was not much of a problem moving them around. As everyone could run every machine an opinion could be formed of their slightly varying accuracy/speed/rigidity etc and sensitive components planned accordingly.

I now work with a hotch-potch of machines/controls which causes so much inefficiency when components/operators are reassigned that accuracy and durability of said machines is strangely the least of our concerns. I personally favour seperate machines/operations over trying to get everything done in one fell swoop, because of the increased lead time/expense/complexity of setting it all up - unless you need to produce thousands off of different varieties of the same part, it is like putting all your eggs in one basket - if that machine fails, what will you fall back on?

So, in a nutshell, standardization, in my opinion, is a good way to minimise the effects of unreliability. Of course, some of the more intelligent operators may then start to leave through boredom....

Hardinge with Fanuc/Heidenhain

DP

[Shane123]

surprised Okuma and mazak wasnt in this list. my experiences are that with a more rigid machine such as the hardings, mori's, and okumas, the better you are off in the long run. i guess the term "you get what you pay for" really applies here.

[Posimech]

You're right about Okuma, since they are in consideration and we already own one. I would put them in the "top shelf" Japanese builder class. I've heard very good things about Mazak, but we already have too many different controls in the shop. Thanks for the feedback.

[Shane123]

Originally Posted by Posimech You're right about Okuma, since they are in consideration and we already own one. I would put them in the "top shelf" Japanese builder class. I've heard very good things about Mazak, but we already have too many different controls in the shop. Thanks for the feedback.

yeah, the mazak is a good machine if you dont mind mazatrol, but i have a fetish for the okumas. Gimme an old lb-15 or lb-40, or 50 for that matter, and a nice crown, and your floor guys wont notice the difference in the control really. a nice way to keep adding machines without retraining your people. the menus seem to be an easier layout to navigate thru also imho. i am glad that okuma moved away from that ugly green/white paint scheme tho, lol.

[Posimech]

We bought an Okuma MB-46VAE with the THINC control over a year ago now. We love the machine, but only use a small percentage of the controls capabilities. An Okuma lathe is an option we will look at when we go to IMTS. FYI: We are on Long Island, so we deal with Morris Tristate. We bought 2 Tsugami's from them and the Okuma.

[underthetire]

I have a very broad background, doing service and applications for a lot of machines. This is only my opinion, and will surely tick someone off, but we just got a new Mazak, a big one with Y axis, and i'm amazed how light duty it is. I would look at HAAS as being almost the same rigidity. Our old ones were very tough. Turning centers, i would look at Okuma and Mori as being top, mori has a leg up on the live tooling on the NL series. I've worked on Daewoos thought they were built pretty well myself, but never worked on a live tool one.

[Shane123]

Originally Posted by underthetire I have a very broad background, doing service and applications for a lot of machines. This is only my opinion, and will surely tick someone off, but we just got a new Mazak, a big one with Y axis, and i'm amazed how light duty it is. I would look at HAAS as being almost the same rigidity. Our old ones were very tough. Turning centers, i would look at Okuma and Mori as being top, mori has a leg up on the live tooling on the NL series. I've worked on Daewoos thought they were built pretty well myself, but never worked on a live tool one.

the 2 mazaks i used were old tape reader cnc's with single line selection led readouts (as in if you wanted to see the r command in that line, you had to turn the dial to the r selection on that line, etc) that were converted to accept shop sync. they were very rigid cnc lathes tho, i give it that. probably 20+ years old at the time (1999) and would hold 5 tenths all night with bar feed operation. we never had a mazak mill at sioux tools, we had a bunch of matsuura tigers that they mainly used for speed drilling, and a couple huge palet changing horizontal mills for complex parts. our bar feed selection ranged from 2 mazaks, 1 okuma twin turret (cant remember the model, but newer than the LB series), and a ton of hardinge slant and slant jr's, as well as one mori seiki and one citizen swiss machine. then in the finishing department, we had a couple smaller mori seikis on oil coolant, a couple hardinge quest series gang tooling cnc lathes, and a bunch of harding conquest cnc lathes with live tooling and flood thru back tubes, as well as another big twin turret okuma (same as the barfeed one but set up for chucking). even the production cells were all hardinge with slants and quests and conquests with live tooling.

it wasnt till i moved to northwestern iowa that i got to experience the joys of Okuma, as most shops up there had a wide selection of mainly okuma! If i could justify the spending at the shop i work at now, its all i would have. the hardings were very very nice and held tolerances great, but nothing took the abuse that the okumas were put thru (heavy insert drilling and heavy boring), and kept parts on size for days on end. i miss my okumas

[MikeZee]

I ran an Okuma LB 40 with upper and lower turret years ago and yes, of all the machines I've run it is absolutely the most rugged and would just go and go. In fact I'm not going to take part in the suvey 'cos the machines I would vote for are not listed.

[5axisguy]

Mikron,Makino and Roeders belong on the top of the list also