Opinions on a couple machines

[Myrmidon]

Now i've been searching for a Boring Mill (looking into starting my own shop w/ some startup money/savings I have laid away for a rainy day and expand on the medium sized shop that was at one time my hobby shop, but has become a supplemental income source).

This shop would specialize in rebuilding machine tool parts/doing short runs of medium to larger sized parts.

The Boring Mills i am looking at now are

Devlieg Jib Borer ~~~ Highly praised for accuracy
Giddings and Lewis Pallet type ~~~ Probably a little biased since when I worked at Giddings and Lewis these were the types of machines I run

Both have very similar Footprints/X and Y Axis, the Devlieg has about a foot less of Z travel though (At this time that wouldn't be an issue, but I could see in the future it being an issue)

Basically I know both makers made a high quality machine, and I wanted to know if the Devlieg Hype on accuracy is just that Hype or if they really can hold to what I've read they can.

They are both within 1000 dollars of each other on price, Within inches of each other on all travels except Z, its like trying to pick between two hot twins, and you heard one of them (the devlieg) was a freak but your just not sure its true. So do you go with what you know or see what you can find out

Sorry for the horrid analogy of my current sitatuion

[universalfab]

Hey Myrmidon we have a big ATLANTIC boring mill that holds .0005" tolerances with a X axis digital read out that we'd sell for $5,200, would you be interested? We've only used the machine a few times and bought it wanting to build and rebuild engine blocks, but we never had the time to really get into it and really never got many jobs to put the machine to good use. It's a big machine I don't know the amount of X and Y travel it has off the top of my head, but if you interested I can find out more info on it.

[Myrmidon]

Holy **** only 5200? that sounds like a pretty damn good deal to me.

Is it a pallet type or a floor type? If it could fit into the old foundation for one of the machines that old company that used to own the building i am using for a workshop Id be interested. Any info you can give me would be great.

Pictures would be much appreciated to, and if i could mosie on over and possibly see it under power?

5200 is alot less then the G&L and Devlieg i was looking at (they were in the 30000 range hahaha), Also the OH crane in the building is only rated for 10 ton and only has 20 or 25 feet under the hook so if any of the parts/are bigger than that larger than that I might be in a spot of trouble...

If you can tell me some more about it in a PM or in this post id be much obliged

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Myrmidon, The G&L and DeVlieg are not apples and apples.

The G&L can be equipped with an outboard support for line boring etc. for repairing things that require it (like engine blocks etc.)

The DeVlieg is designed for very accurate positioning and boring workpieces like die platens.

You may recall the G&L 4" spindle machine with a built-in rotary table. I think it was called the Accu-Center or something similar.

Another good G&L manual machine was the 350T. Had the Morse spindle taper though.

My favorite machine in that size area is the Wotan 75mm with a built in powered rotary table, independent ballscrew/drives for each axis and a DRO on all axis including rotary.

But, it always depends on availability of the preferred machine and $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$.

Dick Z

BTW, I spent so much time in the G&L plants in Fon du Lac and Kaukana they threatened to require a time card and ID card. lol

[Myrmidon]

Ahhh see I was lead to believe by afew guys that have had both, that the Jig bore was very similar (albeit alittle more accurate) to the capabilities of the G&L. Now I think you've made my decision for me, the G&L would be better suited for my personal needs. Although if I had the money I think I would just buy the Devlieg and the G&L Because I can see the pros and cons of both and can definetally see a possible use for both in the future.

Perhaps if I can get my shop off the ground without going bankrupt I'll eventually be able to own both.

O and anyone have opinions on Gray Planer Mills? I am going to eventually want a planer type mill (and buying a used manual) seems a slightly better investment as opposed to buying a new planer mill (I could be wrong though, I just know some of the newer ones cost in the 3 to 5 million range not including the foundation requirements costing tons)

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

For a planer/planer mill, don't forget Rockford. There's a few of them still around in the used machine market.

They'll ask for big money but settle for a lot less, especially in this economy. Lots of machinery on the market now. That includes Hor. Boring Mills.

Dick Z

[Myrmidon]

Yeh Rockford i've heard good things about.

My goal is to hopefully kick off my shop in the next year or two so I am concentrating on HBM's either Pallet Type or Floor (have found some decent floor bars for 40,000 which in the grand scheme of things ain't a bad investment)

Any other makers of either HBM's or Planers that I should look at?

I've been seeing some older Toshiba and other Japanese companies, are they as well built (some from the 70's/80's area) as their American counterparts?

From what I've heard theres some solid Jap companies that make NEW machines, but compared to (IMO) the golden age of Large American Machine tools from the 50s to the 80's are they of similar quality?

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

There were a lot of questionable Japanese machines available in the '70's. Better in the '"80's".

As far as planer mills, you can always ad a Futurmill head to a simple planer.

Ref: floor type HBM. Floor type machines with tables in front are an excellent choice IF everything is on a solid foundation, isolated from everything else.

The foundation must be a monoblock supporting the machine thru all it's travel and the workholding table/s loaded with maximum weight on them. If not, the alignments and geometry will move.

A company I worked for in a past life had 2 Skoda HBM's with 8" spindles inside of 18" rams, on a common pair of ways. X travel was 113 feet. Foundation supported on reinforced concrete pilings 40 feet deep to bed rock, Niagara escarpment.

We had a job that weighed 375 tons. Placed on the floor plate in front of the Skoda's, it compressed everything down nearly 1/8". Had to laser align the machine to the workpiece then re-align the machine after he job was complete (3 of those pieces).

If you're going to retrofit, I'd even include machines back to the '50's and even further if you know what to look for.

Dick Z

[Myrmidon]

That was sort of my plan, get a younger CNC machine, and retrofit/rebuild some older Manuals with good iron to get the shop up and running in the most cost effective way.

The problem is trying to find a decent table type with a right angle attachment with the travels I want, and the fact I don't have as much knowledge & experience as I wish I had. (Hence my own shop sort of being a pipe dream, I have been saving up since I was a wee lad, and I am 22 now).

I have a building that I can lease/eventually buy, that has some vacant foundations (the deepest being 15 feet, I believe an old G&L bar sat in it at one time, the company was bought out, stripped of assets and they left a shattered shell of a building)

Theres also the 10 ton crane they didn't bother to take, its in a piss poor side of the city its in though, so the lease/rent would be cheapish (Figuring Ill have to make up the costs i am saving in a decent security system) < however the crane was the selling point atm.

Of the bars I looked at in my price range (trying for 20 to 30 thousand dollars before the fee's of moving/etc) A G&L table type from the mid 70's I believe would be the best investment (it also has a tailstock/RAA and Swiveling Head ATT)

I was thinking for the investment a table type w/ RAA could do the most of any rebuilding work I need to do for my future investments and accomplish the parts I do have a contract for currently (better than what I have).

Another question for you:

Openside planers are far less rigid then the Double column type? However can they still accomplish decent roughing SFM? I found a Gray Openside planer that would fit well into one of the foundations and when i talked to the dealer he'd let it go really cheap.

The futurmill heads? Those were made by what company?


Also mind if i send you a few PM's to ask more questions, you seem to be pretty darn knowledgeable about the larger machines, and probably vastly more experienced in selection/testing of them then myself.