Newbie- Buying first Mill thoughts, Need feedback

[Seltzer Customs]

Hi guys, first post. Let me just start by saying WOW. The amount of information on this site is astounding. Ok from the begining. I'm 19 and I'm attending my Junior college for precision macheing. This is my first year running the mills and I've always wanted to do machining as soon as I saw wat can be created. I've done foam CNC mill work in high school useing masterCAM and from what I remember I liked the software. I then got into AutoCAD is HS and have 101 under my belt at school now. Now when it comes to machines I'm still pritty clueless on what I'd need and most importanly what it all does to the fine detail or atleast in a simple sence. I am more mechanicly inclined than I am electricly so things like servos and electronic gizmoes esental for CNCs are just names to me. I have no problem learning all of this I just need to figure out what my esentals should be and how they opperate for simply maintence and operation. I am signed up for a NC class for the spring semestar to refamilarise with CNC, G/m codes, and to hopfuly ask lots of questions. I do not know what software they are useing but I can probly find out sooner or later. Now in the sence I'm takeing all these classes to hopfuly gain my assoicates in manufacturing. Now here comes the buying the mill part. Where I curently live, we are expected to grow emencily in the upcomeing years. My idea for all this(and hopefuly we all dont die in 2012 making this useless) is to start a buisness involveing CNC machines. Now right now as for ideas for projects I dont have to many ideas for brand new products. I do have ideas on modifying old things, makeing them lighter, useing thhe part as a base and redesigning "unsightly" designs haha. But typicly parts would be smaller based 6061 alum. with prity close tolerances. And I want to be able to do manual milling with or without the controle of a computer so I dont have to spend x hours on cam to do simple milling. So the idea is start the componey either in my basement or garage based on custom machineing light parts into doing small production on them untill I can design my own major product. Now heres where Im running to one of my main conserns and its as simple as what machine to buy?! I have a $6000-$7000 spending limit for EVERYTHING ready to make chips, computer, programs, tools, machine, EVERYTHING. Now heres the debaiters.
1. I can buy a cheeper bridgeport for 1000-4500 and spend 3000 on a full CNC conversion. The +side it would be a good all around machine for fitting whatever i need. The down side is obiousely size which means I'd have to set up in my detactched, uninsulated garage and time it will take to set up CNC on a bridgeport type mill.
2: This mill.. http://www.cnczone.com/classifieds/s...ate/1152243511
I like it because of the fullsetup w/ flood cooling and it comes with computer and equiptment and tooling, its relitivly close and it has a good price tag on it. Down side is it seems a little small for the work I have and may want to do so as for future work that may be bigger or of harder metal. And I dont want to sit and mill a 1/2" deep pocket for an hour.
3. A FULL setup of the NM-135 or leased NM-200. I realy like this machine because it is a machine that doesnt seem to pose an issue for milling light alum like 6061 as far as the machines rigity. No its not a bridgeport but we're still talking about a starting buisness mill. link to mill http://www.novakon.net/3.html
4. This mill.
http://www.cnczone.com/classifieds/s...uct/3399/cat/4
I started reading into the KX3 and read the owners thread and it obiousely seems like a good solid machine. I wouldnt have to deal with overseas shipping and also it has a nice price tag for my budget.

So I'm looking for feedback from you zone members to realy help to put my money in the right place and not regetting it the week after I bought it. Please post ideas and information on anything I've mentioned especialy if I probly missed a few things or even milles you think may fit my bill. I've read buisness storys about people with their own buisness based on simple manual machines and CNC has alowed them to go above and beond simple machining on a production scale. But since I dont have a production product I'd like to start with a CNC for sheere knowlage and ability. Thanks again for any imput you give. I'm starting from SCRATCH and need all the help I can get. Thanks everyone

[DareBee]

I don't have time to get too involved in this right now.
I will say that you will need a MINIMUM of $1500 in tooling and accessories just to start, a more realistic number would be $2500.
It is a difficult start-up on a limited budget, better stick to the small/hobby sized machines to try and meet your budget. Hopefully with that you can manage to get some work through to make same money.
This will allow you to figure out your market and decide the best type of machine/tooling that will suit your needs.

Happy trails

[BobWarfield]

A couple of thoughts:

First, your budget will get you a machine to learn on, but it looks to small to get to meaningful business return. I'm not trying to come from the camp that says you need a VMC to even think about business, but that's just not a lot of money to get going with.

The tooling alone will eat a good chunk of that as was mentioned.

Second, an interesting, but kind of odd set of machines you're choosing from. I'd throw an RF-45 mill in there somewhere, even if you convert it yourself. It isn't that hard and they are very capable mills. Plenty of guys in the X2, RF-45, and Bridgeport conversion camps to consult with. I think I'd stick with one of those three. The RF-45 and Bridgies are capable of a lot more than the X2's.

Lastly, forget the handwheels and manual machine. There are endless posts from people who were worried they'd miss their handwheels and then discovered they didn't after the machine was converted. Not everyone, but an overwhelming majority.

I would set business thoughts aside until you've gotten past the learning stage. You won't be able to run your business efficiently enough to make a buck anyway, and you may annoy your customers if you dive in too soon.

It's all doable, lots of people here have proven it, it just takes a measured course for you to get there.

Cheers,

BW

[Seltzer Customs]

Thanks for the info on the RF-45 like I said I realy dont know much about current machines mainly ones that have caught my attention, I will look into that mill.
I do know price is an issue thats where I also asking questions as I already know it will be pricey but its almost an inebibility and I need to know or find out what I will be able to use and what I should be useing for the my work.
Obiousely after watching my friends buisness I know I have to have some form of work going out before officialy opening a buisness. Thats why I'm looking into a mill now while skill is low I can learn this at school and really step by step learn my machine before I bust too many knuckels and cause too many headaces especialy before opening any buisness. I do understand this will be a costly process over the next few years buying tools and eqiptment and no I'm not going to do heavy production in even first opening. I see maybe due to size doing 2-3parts at a time in an actual production point.
I'm not afraid to lose hand wheels as long as there is a controleable MPG mod or I wouldnt even mind having some program I can run and just tell my computer "make .001" deep pass 3" long"(in a number of words or codes if need be).
I'm more than happy to read and lissen to all your ideas and I'm trying to do my homework before I jump in waste deep to start makeing something. Thanks again for your imput

[Seltzer Customs]

Well I looked into the RF-45 brefily and the plus side it is a larger machine but still smaller than getting a bridgeport. It does have a good price tag through some componeys and packages and some are quite high. Unfortuetly I see the RF-45 being too much of a headace for setup of CNC and looks like something I'd deff keep throwing money at to be where I think it should be, and to some aspects it almost seems like it may be a less ridgid machine for its size(I may be completely wrong but please comment). But please do comment on the ups and downs of thease machines especialy the downs. I'd like to see some comparison between the X2/NM-135/200/and the RF-45 based on experance from you guys.

[BobWarfield]

No comparison. An RF-45 is a much beefier mill than an X2:

X2 shipping weight: 150lbs
RF-45 shipping weight: 700-over 1000 lbs depending on which one

Value of having the rigidity when you need it? Priceless...

Not sure how you'd come out concluding it is less rigid for its size.

Cheers,

BW

[Seltzer Customs]

Remeber I didnt conclude that the RF was a unridgid machine I simply asked becauseby it being a larger size it looked a bit detached because of the long Z and I know rigity and reliabilty fall hand in hand and its deff not a big solid old bridgeport. I know its deff a big step up from a x2(and the X2 would be the absolute SMALLEST machine I would buy) but I'm probly looking into comparison and any info on the X3 and sister mills comparing one from another to help me decided what SHOULD I be looking at. Like I said I dont have much knowlage in this whole idea of mine but I'm looking for a start. Thanks for the info guys