Best machine for around $10k

[Lowermillin]

Hey guys,

I'm looking into starting a company that mills gun parts. I need a machine that can mill a ar15 lower receiver out of aluminum. Eventually, I'd like the machine to be able to mill out an upper receiver for an ar15.

This is a 3D drawing of what I'm essentially trying to mill. This will be made from solid forged aluminum.



I have a facility that has plenty of floor space, however, I don't have 3 Phase power right now, so that is one of my primary limitations. I only have 1 Phase residential grade power, although I can use 220 volt.

I would not be opposed to buying some used equipment, I've been looking at something like this -

http://cgi.ebay.com/Haas-2001-Mini-M...3%3A1|294%3A30

or

http://cgi.ebay.com/2006-Haas-CNC-VM...3%3A1|294%3A30



Both of these machines will run one single phase power, and I have room for either of them, however, they are both about $10k or so more than I want to spend, What I'm looking for is some kinda of alternative.

Forgive my ignorance on this subject, I'm just now really starting to research this.

[idtkid]

That is one extremely complex part! Do you have experience with CNC machining?

While those machines are great do realize that to machine the part you show above, you will need lots of different tooling. That alone will run you nearly half your budget as those larger VMCs take some pricey tool holders.

IMHO your going to need to double your budget (at least) or settle for something smaller and spend a few days machining a single part like that (indexing it many times over and not messing up :x )

[dertsap]

the alternative is most likely a large sacrifice in equipment quality and or basically toy cnc's

if business is good then it shouldn't take too long to pay off a $20000 machine , for a starter machine you can't beat the mini Haas , any less of a machine would be costly in the long term simply because the machine limitations in regard to speed and torque will cost you in time , and time is money , you can get a tormach for $10,000 but the specs between the two will put the lesser to absolute shame .
to look at that part the first thing that comes to my mind is 4 axis , so it may be worth looking at a rotary as well , this way your ops will be minimized , once set up you'll face less setup time and less chance of things going wrong and producing scrap , both which cost time and money

on the other hand if business will be slow to start and you need to do some r&d then maybe a low cost starter machine will suffice but if it suddenly picks up and you have to do some real production then you won't be able to keep up , so the long term projection is probably the key factor and should be what you base your decision on , that and funds

[Lowermillin]

I appreciate the input.

I am setting up to do mass production of this part from the start. I need a machine that can make that part in a matter of hours, not days. My goal is to make a few hundred of those and to attempt to sell them online. I don't have any CNC machine experience, but I'm an extremely technical guy so I think I can figure it out fast.

Right now I'm working with solidworks to do the modeling, I haven't yet tried to convert a model into gcode, and I have never actually milled something I've modeled. So I'm sure I have a ton to learn.

Regarding machines though, is Haas the best there is? I would be willing to spend $20k on one of those if there wasn't any other way, it just seems that there has to be something cheaper out there that can make that part from a solid piece of aluminum without me having to reposition the piece or anything.

[dertsap]

Originally Posted by Lowermillin Regarding machines though, is Haas the best there is?

No
but they are a decent and reliable machine and well priced which makes them a popular machine
you may be able to find an old japanese machine for less but it's no different than buying a used car and can end up costing you a fortune to fix up , you may be able to get a good deal if you talk to a haas rep and ask the about the toolroom mill , with economy what it is then you may get a decent sale price on a new machine with a warranty and all

in order to machine that without having to re orientate the part then you will need at least a rotary if not a 5th axis thats if it is do-able in one op

[DeusExMachina]

Originally Posted by Lowermillin Regarding machines though, is Haas the best there is? I would be willing to spend $20k on one of those if there wasn't any other way, it just seems that there has to be something cheaper out there that can make that part from a solid piece of aluminum without me having to reposition the piece or anything.

Is Haas the best? Who knows? Is there something else cheaper that can mill an AR15 Lower from billet? Oh yes, my cheap $1500 desktop cnc could do it. Heres the question though, how much time do you want to spend on it? My cheap machine can do it in ~40 hours of solid milling with a couple hours in there for setup but unless you're selling this things for $4k a piece thats not going be cost effective in the least.

The next size up, the Tormach ($10k) can probably cut that down to 20 hours of milling (just a guess based on the size of the machine and available spindle power compared to mine).

The Haas is in a completely separate category compared to those lighter mills though. Have a look at this it may give you a hint as to the work required to make one of these. On top of that there is a feature (the magwell) which cannot actually be milled. It needs to be broached or wire edm'd -- broaching probably being the cheapest.

You probably cannot do this in a single operation without an extremely expensive machine and extremely expensive cam software. Even with a 4th axis (rotary indexer) would still require at least three operations to do the two sides and finish some of the holes/pockets, and depending how you do it extremely expensive cam software to efficiently index the part.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned yet. Both the Haas's listed use Cat 40 spindles which really aren't terribly expensive as far as toolholder go. But, the larger one has a much bigger travel range (30" vs 16"). With the huge travels, it could be feasible to mount 3 - 4 receivers at time.

[idtkid]

For what its worth, I concur with all the above posts.

Lastly, be realistic, with time and materials combined, are you making a profit in the end?

Time to learn CAD + Time to learn CAM + Time to learn machining could equal more in itself than to pay a machine shop to make a hundred of these for you.

+ Cost of machine + Cost of tools + Cost of Acces. + Cost of stock could equal a cost of $1000 per lower receiver for the first 1000 you make just to break even.

Though it is a blast to design and machine parts, its one thing to do it as hobby, and one thing to truly make a profit from it. Just things to think about.

[pjensen]

The advice here seems good to me.

If you are really handy with electronics, and are willing to spend a month or two (or three...) ripping out the electronics on an older machine and upgrading to modern stuff, you can get out quite cheaply (in cash, not in your time).

I'm almost done retrofitting a 25 year old Fadal VMC40. Total cost, including shipping and upgraded electronic parts, and a bunch of new tooling, is just about $10k. Much better machine than a tormach or IH mill.

You need to find a machine with good iron, and upgrade the electronics. However, this is not a route for the timid, and you had best be confident with your computer and electronics skills before you start. And, you should budget a few months of waiting for parts in the mail, working on the mill, realizing you'll need a few more parts, ordering them, waiting a week, blowing up a servo driver, ordering more parts, repeat...

Anyway, it's an option if you have more time than money

Cheers,

-Peter

[Lowermillin]

I understand what you guys are saying

However, I'm totally alright with investing in equipment because my ultimate goal is to be a full on firearm manufacturer. I'm trying to get started in the business, and as sales increase, ramp up production and equipment.

As of right now I'm thinking I'll need a CNC Mill, a laser cnc engraver, and maybe a wire cnc EDM machine

I'm just trying to get a feel for the kind of money this is going to take, and what equipment I need to start looking into, like the brands/models of equipment I'd need to manufacture something like this, I'd like to manufacture ar15 mounting rails, upper receivers, mounts, etc, perhaps eventually making the barrel/breach as well

I really appreciate any information or opinions you guys can offer, I'm trying to soak up as much info as possible before I buy a machine

[DRD]

The advice is right on these guys are givivng. If you want to get into to making parts professionally, you need the real machines.
Stay away from the hobby-toy mill machines for sure. You need machines that can make parts. Get yourself a hass mill, the mini mill or a vf1, a production machine, that makes parts, and alot of them. You will need to spend some time to learn cam system, but it's all part of making parts.

[Lowermillin]

So after doing a lot of research, I'm thinking that for my application a haas super minimill 2 is what I need to go with, can anyone offer any thoughts on that?

[couch]

So jealous if you get that super mini 2. Firearms/knives and bicycle parts are all I want to make right now.