Newbie- 50k budget. To buy, or not to buy ?

[Need CNC]

Hello,


For the past 3 years, I have had my small parts subcontracted out. I use these materials : 6061, 7075, 4140, 304. Popular alloys that most mills can tackle.


So now I am asking myself this question... should I take the plunge for my own machine ?


This first admission may disqualify me, right off the bat. I have never ran a CNC before. On the other hand, I am technical and believe I could do it. I have built my own computers for the past 12 years and I design my own parts, so this shouldn't be too hard, right


Anyhow, I have researched the subject pretty well but am left with more questions than I started with.


I use Solidworks 2009 currently. I have all of my parts in solid models. It just appears that there are no industry standards. Or, I should say "easy" standards. I am really trying to figure out why I cannot jump from solid models to finished parts ??? This is the 21st century... Why G code and all the complications ?


I think that we are at a point, technology wise, that one could place a block of aluminum into a CNC and click "mill". If we have the CAD software, shouldn't it output data good enough to mill with ? Or am I completely off base here ?


I don't really have the time to take coarses just for CNC. I am pushing the limit, as is, just to design and get products to market. If there is a simple [haha], plug-n-play type CNC out there... then I am all ears. Otherwise, I may be stuck with expensive subcontracting.

I would like to get all my operations under one roof.... overall quality would improve. Also, room and power are non-issues. I have plenty for a vertical or horizontal machine.


Any help... or polite criticism is welcomed.


Thanks.

[123CNC]

The simplest answer, way too many variables to just push 'mill-part.'

CAD gives you a whole lot of part information, but what are all the steps needed to transform that information into a machined part?

Think of the entire process in manual terms and it should become clear. If I designed a part, now how am I going to produce it? If I have a 2" hole through the center of the part, what methods can I use to produce the hole? What tools will I use? If the CAD is responsible for answering these types of questions, then how does it gather and decide the right answer? CAM.

A CAM program is an interface to walking you through the process or workflow. Feed it the necessary information about the materials, tools, methods, and CAD dimensional data and it will crunch the numbers to give you a toolpath.

G-code is just the state of the game from transition from manual processes to automated. It is a simplified machining 'basic' if you will.

CAD/CAM can live under one roof. But it really doesn't change the overall process much.

If your part is simple enough, than CAM may not even be necessary. You could manually write your process in G-code or use a 'conversational' machine to program the process. But I'm guessing if what you do requires the power and features of SolidWorks, you are probably in the CAM realm.

[neilw20]

Sure you can make a good CNC for 50K these days, but you might like to check whether the customers will still be there. I am sure there will be new ones. Depending on the complexity of the parts, be aware of the CAD/CAM costs in your 50K. A bit of planning and a lot of research and asking questions will help. At least you have asked, before leaping off the deep end. Enjoy...

[jalessi]

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What is the volume of parts?

How much would you save?

Would you hire a CNC operator to run the parts?

Who will sell your product if you are busy machining them?

Have you asked several out of state vendors to price quote machining your parts.

Maybe consulting with a sales rep from Haas will give you a better idea of what your looking at as far as time invested per part and end cost.

A accurate cost analysis is in order.

Jeff...

[jalessi]

What is the volume of parts?

How much would you save?

Would you hire a CNC operator to run the parts?

Who will sell your product if you are busy machining them?

Have you asked several out of state vendors to price quote machining your parts.

Maybe consulting with a sales rep from Haas will give you a better idea of what your looking at as far as time invested per part and end cost.

A accurate cost analysis is in order.

Jeff...

[DareBee]

You say you don't know anything about CNC, but do you know anything about machining?

A CNC is not a substitute for machining skills, it is just a method to automate (and improve) what an experienced machinist would do using conventional equipment.

I am not saying you are incapable, just that there is good reason why it takes 3 years of school and 8000 hrs job experience to become a machinist (and this still leaves some people useless as machinists).
Set-ups and orders of operation are the main hurdles, but there are dozens (maybe even hundreds) of little things that all add up to make a whole.

[behindpropeller]

We just did what you are thinking about. I'm still buying but here is the scope of it:

HAAS TM-2 36K
Tooling $4k
Software $2.5K

I think we will have another 3-5K in various "stuff" before it is all done.

Tim

[scadvice]

... do you have pictures of the parts you want to make? Drawings? And...not to forget the most important thing a NDA (non-discloser agreement). Yes you can possibley do what you want to do for 50K. You can also put yourself out of business by buying the wrong equipment.
That is part of what I do, on a larger scale for one of the major defense contractors. I have set up a number of small turn-key shops for smaller companies when I had my own business, and it is very hard to answer your questions without seeing what parts you want to make, how many at a time, and what you predict your growth to be in the near future.
Don't just show them to anyone and the ones you do, have them sign a NDA. Consider that you may need to protect your designs.
Steve

[apriorius]

If I were in your shoes and budget allowed (time and $), I would consider buying the mill and slowly transferring work away from your outsource and into your shop over a period of time. You know you can get the parts you need by outsourcing and you think you can do them cheaper and better yourself. Buy the mill, train yourself on it, and if it doesn't work sell it and move on. You may take a hit, but you won't endanger your supply line nor customer contracts by missing a deliverable.

[murrayclair]

Metal cutting is an art. The correct cutting speeds, feed rates, Depth of cut, tooling selection, insert grades, swarf evacuation cycles, macro's etc. Not to mention maintainence and running costs. Stick with your core business and sub the parts.

[JDenyer232]

Originally Posted by Need CNC Hello, For the past 3 years, I have had my small parts subcontracted out. I use these materials : 6061, 7075, 4140, 304. Popular alloys that most mills can tackle. So now I am asking myself this question... should I take the plunge for my own machine ? This first admission may disqualify me, right off the bat. I have never ran a CNC before. On the other hand, I am technical and believe I could do it. I have built my own computers for the past 12 years and I design my own parts, so this shouldn't be too hard, right Anyhow, I have researched the subject pretty well but am left with more questions than I started with. I use Solidworks 2009 currently. I have all of my parts in solid models. It just appears that there are no industry standards. Or, I should say "easy" standards. I am really trying to figure out why I cannot jump from solid models to finished parts ??? This is the 21st century... Why G code and all the complications ? I think that we are at a point, technology wise, that one could place a block of aluminum into a CNC and click "mill". If we have the CAD software, shouldn't it output data good enough to mill with ? Or am I completely off base here ? I don't really have the time to take coarses just for CNC. I am pushing the limit, as is, just to design and get products to market. If there is a simple [haha], plug-n-play type CNC out there... then I am all ears. Otherwise, I may be stuck with expensive subcontracting. I would like to get all my operations under one roof.... overall quality would improve. Also, room and power are non-issues. I have plenty for a vertical or horizontal machine. Any help... or polite criticism is welcomed. Thanks.

We bought a new Fanuc Robodrill Mate, tooled, delivered and 3 days training for 50K. You can learn G-code, it is a very easy language once you understand the rules. I had never run any cnc equipment before, now I program, setup, and operate both the vertical machining center as well as a new Hass SL10 lathe. I got 3 days training and they turned me loose. 2 years later we are machining some pretty complex stuff. Hands on experience can be the best teacher. Of course I had experience with manual milling and turning, if you have no experience in manual machining then it's gonna be a much rougher ride, and you should probably continue to sub the work out. The benefits of doing your own work in house is faster leadtime, greater flexibility in design changes, and cost savings if you do things right. The downside is initial investment, maintenance, learning curve, repairs, overhead, etc. Hope this is of some help to ya.

[pzzamakr1980]

I was in the same boat as you are. I was a computer programmer and very hands-on. My budget was roughly a tenth of what yours was since I am still a college student but with the same needs in lower volumes. I purchased a manual mill, converted it after a time, taught myself Mastercam with help from these boards from time to time, and have been making parts for two years.

I have finally graduated to taking subcontracts from other machine shops for small quantity parts as well as producing parts from my own designs.

The most sensible approach in my opinion was keep farming out, but buy the machinery, and slowly ween yourself off the farming. Have you considered something used in good shape or somthing smaller. Building up to a nice machine and starting on something small and inexpensive until your production demands it might be something to consider. I have a piece of crap, but it makes some nice quality parts in a variety of metals albeit slower and with more attention needed than a nice VMC. And for right now, with my volume of work, its adequate. So maybe consider something used or something smaller and something that won't have such a large initial investment. Tormach maybe?