advice needed / to buy or not???

[teamjnz]

Hello Friends,

I need a little advice on a machine I am really interested in buying. The machine is a mid 80's Shizouka AN-S, 2 1/2 axis cnc with a Bandit 4, Allen Bradley 8400 control. The machine is still owned by the original purchaser and not used in production, only tool and die work. It comes with 20 NMTB#40 holders and a KurtII vice.

I am going to look at it tomorrow morning and possibly make an offer. I don't know much about the Bandit controls. I have intentions with starting a machine shop on the side and using this machine for any work I can round up.

I don't know what this old machine is worth with the tooling that it comes with.

Any advice, or things to examine while looking at this machine. Any comments are welcome. Pros and cons.

Thanks,
teamjnz

[DareBee]

Well, am not familiar with the machine or control but it should be worth at least 5g.
That tooling would cost $2500 to buy just by itself.
If it truly is 2.5d that would mean that 3 axis work is only limited due to limitations of the control. A control upgrade would give you 3 axis capabilities without needing to upgrade the machine.
Most CAM software programming in what they consider to be 3D truly is only using 2 axis simultaneously anyway. It is probable that that control only allows G17 plane moves and will not accept G18 or G19 plane moves. you could still do some decent 3D machining using Z level type 3D programming.
Coincidentally FreeMill by MecSoft is limited to this type of 3 axis programming anyway (convenient for you if you wish to do that).

[scadvice]

... are the key to an older machine. If you cannot get help, service, or replacement parts when it breaks down, and they all do at one time or another, it may not be worth it. Tooling as Dare Bee says is always a plus and NB 40 tooling is everywhere and fairly cheap. The control and machine is fairly old, in the early 80's I would guess. Look on the ser.# tag the date is sometimes there or part of the number itself.
Bring a mag base and a tenth indicator. Check the slop in the table by pulling and pushing each side. Backlash in the ball screws. If you can, get him to cut you two squares in a piece of alum... like the example below
X0 Y0 is at the lower left corner. Sharp 1/2 or 3/8 end mill. no offset needed. approx a 2 and half inch sq.
g00x-.6 y1.5
g01z-.5f15 s2000
x0 (Some controls that old require the y1.5 or x and y on each move line)
y3
x3
y0
x0
y1.5
g00z.5
x1.5 y-.6
g01 z-.250
y.05
x.05
y2.95
x2.95
y.05
x1.5
y-.6
g00 z.5
This will give you a method to tell the rigidity of the table and ball screw backlash. Just measure on both sides of the witness line on the both sample squares where the cutter moved into the cut. Both sides should be the same or very close, the bottom cut the x axis, the top cut the Y axis. This will give you an idea of the ball screws backlash.
Surface finish - if you see circular ridges, or noisy, think of spindle bearings.
Have to go or I'd write more.

Steve

[advt001]

I have an old mill with the AB8400mp and keep it around because it was the first cnc I bought new.I figure its worth 2k but my concern would be in finding a mechanic.

[teamjnz]

Thanks for the input. I didn't end up buying the Shizouka. I got a great deal on a 1984 Kitamura MyCenter1 with a tool changer for about the same price. The machine runs good. I saw it in production, did a little research and ended up buying it.

It arrives tomorrow the 21st.

Now I need to get a phase converter and get it ready to make money!!

teamjnz

[scadvice]

Once you get your machine in service it and check the back lash, table tightness, and most of all oiler and oil flow to all the ways. Metering valves can clog and oil is the machines life blood.
Get yourself one of the free programming packages on the web. I would look at and play with some of the free CAM/CAD ones. I can think of only one right now Visual Cad, but there are others and maybe someone else reading this can suggest them. It’s good to write a few programs by hand to understand the code but really time intensive. BTW - if you are looking for a CADCAM package really research them and try their free trials. I had a bad experience with one, BOBCAD. Anyway, you may already have a package you use but if you don't, just take your time finding one and don't let them talk you into one like I did.

[teamjnz]

Thanks scadvice... The machine is in and sits where I want it to be. Now I need to get power and service the machine. I do have a licensed version of GeoPath and have been machining about 20 years now. Hopefully this will be the beginning of something big, Lord willing.

When the shipper Dude first got over to my place we chit chatted for a few minutes and he mentioned this machine he was bring to me looks just like a machine he has had for about 3 years just sitting in the yard. Sound like a guy was moving out of the area to go back East and was going to have his machine shipped out to him. So he went to load up the machine but the truck never showed that was supposed to come. So he ended up taking the machine back to his yard until the owner could reschedule a line trucker. The truck never came so he tarped it up and it has been sitting until now. The owner sounds like a drunk and has never made any attempts to get the machine. It has been 3 years now and the rigger said he was going to take it to scrap yard just to get it out of there. I asked him if it works and he said that it was running when took it out of the shop. I mentioned if I pay for rigging if he would he bring over instead of taking it to the scrap yard. Sure was the answer. So I am going to go look at it this coming week to see if it is a rusted out piece or some worth to get running.

teamjnz

[Al_The_Man]

From my knowledge of the Bandit 4, Allen Bradley 8400 control, you may have a hard time getting support and/or parts, the scrap one may be useful for a parts source at least.
Al.

[scadvice]

but, I would like to keep in touch with you on this refurb project, because I'm in the middle of one right now also. Maybe we should start a new Thread
just on our experances, questions and problem solvings? I Know some issues and rumors about about some of the older VMC's to watch for and maybe others can shed light on them or add their own. Its a thought.
I started CNC'c in 1983, self taught and have owned my own shop, but now work for a major defense contractor as a manuf. engine. In a year or two I will be be back in my own shop with CNC equipment ( sort of a semi- retirement shop). Also I've found some very good ways of removing rust. Steve

[teamjnz]

I am going up to take a look at it early tomorrow afternoon. He said he as had it tarped up real good and it stayed dry... I know moisture can come up threw the ground and then be trapped under the tarps too.

teamjnz

[DareBee]

You watch Survivorman too?
Or maybe that is only Canadian TV?

[teamjnz]

Originally Posted by DareBee You watch Survivorman too? Or maybe that is only Canadian TV?

Ummm... Never heard of Survivorman.

I saw the machine today. Turns out it has been sitting on a flatbed trailer. Machine looks like it is in fair condition with very little rust, and 6" Kurt vice. He is going to deliver it Sept. 2 in the AM. Kind of a trade, he wants my Shizouka Knee mill for the scrap money. No problem.. I bought it in haste. A complete retrofit gets very costly. More than I wanted to spend on that machine anyway. I was wonder how I was going to get rid of it. Problem solved

teamjnz