Is it possible???

[trailgrind]

Ok, so here is the idea. I want to make my own watch using homebuilt CNC, this means making very very small pieces. Is it possible to build my own CNC's that will have the accuracy needed for this project? I am willing to build slightly larger CNC's to make the parts for this one. I think i would need a CNC lathe and mill with a rotary table. Could i possibly build one machine that could be more of an all in one? What are your ideas?
I could use suggestions from basic design, to rail choices, steppers and screws versus gears, poweplant for the cutter for milling operations. I would need to use a lubricant/coolant in addition to improve accuracy and decrease any chances of heat warping.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.
thank,
Andre

[GeneK]

Originally Posted by trailgrind Ok, so here is the idea. I want to make my own watch using homebuilt CNC, this means making very very small pieces. Is it possible to build my own CNC's that will have the accuracy needed for this project? I am willing to build slightly larger CNC's to make the parts for this one. I think i would need a CNC lathe and mill with a rotary table. Could i possibly build one machine that could be more of an all in one? What are your ideas? I could use suggestions from basic design, to rail choices, steppers and screws versus gears, poweplant for the cutter for milling operations. I would need to use a lubricant/coolant in addition to improve accuracy and decrease any chances of heat warping. Any help would be greatly appreciated. thank, Andre

Andre,I'm trying to get my mind around the scope of what you are asking. First the watch making is ambigous, what size and type? Mechanical or quartz, do you intend to build every thing from scratch or start with a movement in the white and finish it.
The CNC part depends on what you intend with the watch. I would use the CNC to make templates and boring jigs for the watch, then use more conventional watch factory processes. Lindsay books has an excelent book on lthe South Bend watch factory and the jigs and such that they used in manufacture.

I have had over the years occasion to make quite a few replacement parts for watches and clocks. I now limit my work mostly to clocks. I do have a small CNC mill that I use. It has simple leadscrews and can only be brought to somewhere less or equal to .001 backlash, needless to say that is far from what is needed for watchmaker accuracy, so you are looking at ground ball screws and perhaps even a closed loop servo system.

Just some idle thoughts and reaction to your query.

GeneK
CMW, Chigaco School of Watchmaking 1968

[trailgrind]

Thanks for the response Gene. This is all just in the beginning phases, basically the information gathering stage. I am a metalsmith and am currently in medical school so i am doing this in spare time and don't expect to be ready to start building for probably another 3 years. First I am looking to go with mechanical, and i would like to build everything from scratch. I spoke with a watchmaker in austria and he told me about a book to order, watchmaking by george daniels and i have ordered it. I won't have a chance to look at in until my winter break. I am definitely ok with ground ballscrews and would probably be ok with servo system, though i am more familiar with steppers, but i have plenty of time to learn. The watchmaker i spoke with told me that much of the current mass production of mechanical watches is done by CNC, whether that is true or not, i'm not sure. I just took him on his word when he told me this and that it would be possible to make my own by CNC. Thanks for the book, i will also look that up. Lindsey books is great.

[GeneK]

Originally Posted by trailgrind Thanks for the response Gene. This is all just in the beginning phases, basically the information gathering stage. I am a metalsmith and am currently in medical school so i am doing this in spare time and don't expect to be ready to start building for probably another 3 years. First I am looking to go with mechanical, and i would like to build everything from scratch. I spoke with a watchmaker in austria and he told me about a book to order, watchmaking by george daniels and i have ordered it. I won't have a chance to look at in until my winter break. I am definitely ok with ground ballscrews and would probably be ok with servo system, though i am more familiar with steppers, but i have plenty of time to learn. The watchmaker i spoke with told me that much of the current mass production of mechanical watches is done by CNC, whether that is true or not, i'm not sure. I just took him on his word when he told me this and that it would be possible to make my own by CNC. Thanks for the book, i will also look that up. Lindsey books is great.

Andre, I'm sure that it is true that current production is done on CNC machines, machines that start in the hundreds of thousand dollars each. Most of what I have seen and heard of in 'home shop' enviroments will not approach the accuracy and repeatability of this class machine. I'm sure you can learn and master the techniques to fit parts and make a complete watch. It only takes time and practice. I have a soap box I like to get on about practice. Many times there will be a request 'how do I re-pivot a balance staff? They want to be told how to do it -once- and have the results of a certified master watchmaker. If you are willing to 'pay your dues' and practice the steps and procedures, watchmaking can be a very rewarding endeavor.
George Daniels is the premier watchmaker of this century. He has patents on some of the newest concepts in horology. Learn as much as you can of him and his work. One of his proteges whose name escapes me at the moment, is making some fantastic hand made watches that sell for a few thousand dollars and use Daniels escapement.

The South Bend watch factory book shows how they use face plate turning to produce precision parts with jigs and boring templates. Another Lindsay book that stands out in this field is called something like 'accurate machine work' it covers a lot about face plate turning and boring templates to repeatedly place holes in plates for watches and adding machines.

I wish you well in your endeavors, you seem to have put a lot of great challenges in front of you for your life and I hope that you do well in all of them. Please be sure to let us all know how you are progressing from time to time.

GeneK

[trailgrind]

Gene,
I definitely understand the practice makes perfect thing. I didn't learn to sink or raise metal by doing it once, i've done it many many times and there are still imperfections. I have no problem making a couple of watch mechanisms before i get it right. plus the amount of material used is minimal compared to some of my other projects, so multiple watches doesn't mean as big of a loss of material.
what do you think of building multiple CNC machines and using each to make a newer more accurate machine? I'm thinking it would take multiple generations until one is reached that starts to approach industry accuracy but it might be possible. I'm thinking that eventually the limiting factor won't necessarily be in what the accuracy of the last machine but more in the quality of parts available, specifically highly accurate ball screws and steppers or servos capable of much smaller steps, either through some kind of gearing or better/more complex circuits.
Do you happen to know where i might find more specifics on what the industry is using, servos, etc?
Also, i have a small lathe, but i know it is nowhere near as accurate as i would need to produce a watch, do you have any suggestions for small lathes meant for this kind of work?
Thanks again for your information,
Andre

[GeneK]

Originally Posted by trailgrind Gene, I definitely understand the practice makes perfect thing. I didn't learn to sink or raise metal by doing it once, i've done it many many times and there are still imperfections. I have no problem making a couple of watch mechanisms before i get it right. plus the amount of material used is minimal compared to some of my other projects, so multiple watches doesn't mean as big of a loss of material. what do you think of building multiple CNC machines and using each to make a newer more accurate machine? I'm thinking it would take multiple generations until one is reached that starts to approach industry accuracy but it might be possible. I'm thinking that eventually the limiting factor won't necessarily be in what the accuracy of the last machine but more in the quality of parts available, specifically highly accurate ball screws and steppers or servos capable of much smaller steps, either through some kind of gearing or better/more complex circuits. Do you happen to know where i might find more specifics on what the industry is using, servos, etc? Also, i have a small lathe, but i know it is nowhere near as accurate as i would need to produce a watch, do you have any suggestions for small lathes meant for this kind of work? Thanks again for your information, Andre

Andre, There's a rule of thumb that to QA a part the QA tools precision and accuracy must be one order of magnitude greater than the part they are checking. The machine to make parts has to be more accurate than what you are making. Yes, more expensive ball screws will be required, the single circuit, rolled thread inexpensive type won't do it for your application. You need multi-circuit, pre-loaded, precsion ground, and certified for the level of precision you need. The machine you base your CNC on has to be accurately made. On a mill, it is assumed that the x and y axes are 90 degrees. But they have been made on another machine with that same assumption. True, the sine error for the lack of the axes being truely orthongonal is small, just as in calculus class there was always that little epsilon error factor on certain functions.
Back in San Diego the Horological group borrowed videos from AWCI, I remember one on the IWC grand complication(I know that should be in french but I don't know how to misspell it that way) also Patek Phillipe. In both of those videos they toured the factory and showed the machines in action. Most were CNC. Perhaps if you or your watchmaker friend have AWCI membership you can borrow these videos. The librarian will be able to find videos for the things you are interested. I am retired and could not keep up with the dues increases. Last year jumped to $100, this year $125.
Though I have kept up with horology over the years, I actually worked in electronics most of my career. I'm the jack of all trades, you name it I have worked in it or around it.
A comment on making a couple of watches. The fellow who worked with George Daniels said in the article that as he worked he would improve on the finishing of the later parts and would go back and remake the earlier parts to make the watch have an over all 'balanced' look. George Daneils told him that the parts should look like they just appeared out of nothing, not made, with no marks or defects that revealed that they were manufactured.
Pardon the rambling but I do want to encourage you to go for your dreams.

GeneK

[trailgrind]

Ok, so now i am a little confused. You are saying that the QA must be more accurate, so better micrometers and such, I understand that. But how can the machine to make parts be more accurate than what you are making. Am I wrong in my understanding of the evolution of machinery, that we all started out with a relatively inaccurate versions of machines (endplay, wobble, slightly off center) but even still they made parts that were more accurate than hand made parts, then with each generation of machines and measuring equipment, the next generation would be more accurate? I don't see how you could only make parts from a more accurate machine. It isn't like the clouds parted, and perfectly accurate machines descended to earth. So the machines that we have now that are super accurate had to at some point come from much less accurate machines. So what I mean is if I were to build, 10 generations of CNC mills, my first handmade CNC mill would be pretty inaccurate, with better measuring, and maybe shimming,(even adjusting designs to compensate for the inaccuracy) I could then make a part for a new CNC mill that would be more accurate than the last. Then build on each machine. I don't know what the percentage increases would be but I would think that the 2nd machine might be 50% more accurate than the 1st but each time the percentage of improvement would decrease, so the 20th generation machine might only be 1% more accurate than the 19th but would be 99.9% more accurate than the first. In all reality it would have to be a combination of new CNC mills and lathes to be able to create all the parts for each new generation. Am I totally wrong in my thinking or is this correct and what you are saying is that the accuracy I need to make a watch part wouldn't be able to be made on the 21st generation if the accuracy used to make the 21st generation matched the accuracy needed for the watch part, the accuracy of the 21st machine would be less than the accuracy needed to make it(due to all the slightly inaccurate parts adding up)? So the 23rd generation would have been made with a higher level of accuracy than the accuracy needed for the watch part, so it and later generations are the only ones that can be used to make that part, is this correct?
I'm not trying to argue, only understand the realm of what I want to do. Because if i need to build 20 or 30 generations of machines, to be able to make my parts, that is definitely not possible for my case. However, 10 generations might be possible if i could increase accuracy by a good percentage in each generation, especially considering I could use the older generation machines for many other things where less accuracy would be required, (wood, art, casting machining, etc.). Of course this would push back my timeline further, but sometimes it is really fun to make tooling and take on such a challenge.
Gene, it is nice to talk to a fellow jack of all trades, though you surely have much more experience than I (I am only 27). I have been an artist, a construction worker, a stoneworker, built my own tooling for metalsmithing, done lots of woodworking, done tons with ceramics and now working towards being a doctor. I appreciate the chance to learn from others, and never would have mastered any of my skills had I not listened to the advice of people with more experienced. I truly appreciate your input. Thank you. How did you get into Horology by the way? I should probably say that my interest has stemmed from my metalsmithing experience and the unique sense of aesthetic that I developed during my time creating art and the fact that to date I haven't found a watch that fits my aesthetic tastes. I have only owned cheap watches that I can beat the heck out of without guilt. (when I crack/break a 7 dollar watch, it doesn't hurt me any more than it hurts my wallet, because there is no emotional connection) I hope to create something that matters to me and can become a family heirloom one day.
I am not at all discouraged by your comments but rather encouraged, as input helps increase my understanding so I will be better prepared for what I want to accomplish.
Thanks again,
Andre

[WayneHill]

Utopia is what we aim for. It is not an end result. The best quality machinery has imperfections. Just as watches are not exactly identical.

[Bear]

WOW !
time again !
an ax will do made many
sun "Clocks" accuraxy just fine.
Bear

[GeneK]

Originally Posted by trailgrind Ok, so now i am a little confused. You are saying that the QA must be more accurate, so better micrometers and such, I understand that. But how can the machine to make parts be more accurate than what you are making. Am I wrong in my understanding of the evolution of machinery, that we all started out with a relatively inaccurate versions of machines (endplay, wobble, slightly off center) but even still they made parts that were more accurate than hand made parts, then with each generation of machines and measuring equipment, the next generation would be more accurate? I don't see how you could only make parts from a more accurate machine. It isn't like the clouds parted, and perfectly accurate machines descended to earth. So the machines that we have now that are super accurate had to at some point come from much less accurate machines. So what I mean is if I were to build, 10 generations of CNC mills, my first handmade CNC mill would be pretty inaccurate, with better measuring, and maybe shimming,(even adjusting designs to compensate for the inaccuracy) I could then make a part for a new CNC mill that would be more accurate than the last. Then build on each machine. I don't know what the percentage increases would be but I would think that the 2nd machine might be 50% more accurate than the 1st but each time the percentage of improvement would decrease, so the 20th generation machine might only be 1% more accurate than the 19th but would be 99.9% more accurate than the first. In all reality it would have to be a combination of new CNC mills and lathes to be able to create all the parts for each new generation. Am I totally wrong in my thinking or is this correct and what you are saying is that the accuracy I need to make a watch part wouldn't be able to be made on the 21st generation if the accuracy used to make the 21st generation matched the accuracy needed for the watch part, the accuracy of the 21st machine would be less than the accuracy needed to make it(due to all the slightly inaccurate parts adding up)? So the 23rd generation would have been made with a higher level of accuracy than the accuracy needed for the watch part, so it and later generations are the only ones that can be used to make that part, is this correct? I'm not trying to argue, only understand the realm of what I want to do. Because if i need to build 20 or 30 generations of machines, to be able to make my parts, that is definitely not possible for my case. However, 10 generations might be possible if i could increase accuracy by a good percentage in each generation, especially considering I could use the older generation machines for many other things where less accuracy would be required, (wood, art, casting machining, etc.). Of course this would push back my timeline further, but sometimes it is really fun to make tooling and take on such a challenge. Gene, it is nice to talk to a fellow jack of all trades, though you surely have much more experience than I (I am only 27). I have been an artist, a construction worker, a stoneworker, built my own tooling for metalsmithing, done lots of woodworking, done tons with ceramics and now working towards being a doctor. I appreciate the chance to learn from others, and never would have mastered any of my skills had I not listened to the advice of people with more experienced. I truly appreciate your input. Thank you. How did you get into Horology by the way? I should probably say that my interest has stemmed from my metalsmithing experience and the unique sense of aesthetic that I developed during my time creating art and the fact that to date I haven't found a watch that fits my aesthetic tastes. I have only owned cheap watches that I can beat the heck out of without guilt. (when I crack/break a 7 dollar watch, it doesn't hurt me any more than it hurts my wallet, because there is no emotional connection) I hope to create something that matters to me and can become a family heirloom one day. I am not at all discouraged by your comments but rather encouraged, as input helps increase my understanding so I will be better prepared for what I want to accomplish. Thanks again, Andre

Andre I know you are not arguing, you are learning. You have, beleive it or not made my point. Each generation of machine did not make itself more accurate. The machinist used his skill to make parts that were more accurate than the machines they were made on. The shimming and fitting you refered to for example. Look into scraping in machine repair and manufacture. By taking three plates and comparing their surfaces with each other in the proper sequence using prussian blue and removing the high spots you can create three surface plates accurate to your level of skill and patience, flat within millionths of an inch. by milling them on a mill you will have cutter marks a few thousanths deep and a surface wavyness that reflects the idiosyncracies of the mill and its motions.
I'm sure you will be able to CNC machine the plates and bridges but in the back of my mind planting the train will be a challenge. Mainly from the tolerance bulid up from wheel cutting and depthing.
I think that if you continue to seek advice here and other CNC related groups and carefully plan your steps you will hit a satisfactory machine in one or two iterations.

GeneK

[ironDigit]

and never would have mastered any of my skills had I not listened to the advice of people with more experience

that's a wonderfull remark.
It actually makes machines machines more humanllike(robots even)
see : just like you needed MORE experienced people to make you "less but experienced" machines need more ACCURATE machines to make them "less but accurate".

It takes only human experience to improve machines but machines can never improve machines hack they can't even improve themselves damit.HAHA.

machines were improved by things like handscraping and more creative metrology and even more important its the demand wich creates availabillity.

so to put it togther i think YES building 10generations machines will show progress......lots of it ,but the progress did not come from the machines but from the builder .This brings me to ask why don't you try to make a couple of dominoplays before you try to make a machine that can make watches cause thats some thing most of us here can't and will get quite expensive to be viewed as learning material but thats on my budget offcourse.

atleast thats the way i got to view it..good luck !!

[trailgrind]

IronDigit, what do you mean by "why don't you try to make a couple of dominoplays"? I've never heard this before. If you mean to build a different type of CNC first, that is something i would like to do. As I said earlier, I'm in school right now, and don't really have a place to build a machine currently, so currently a lot of what I am doing is information gathering and planning. I enjoy woodworking so a CNC wood router is definitely something I will build, along with a CNC foam cutter for my metal casting. I will most likely tackle both of these before attempting the watchmaking CNC's. I also have an idea to build a CNC stone lathe, which I started to think of when I was working in the stone industry. I have lots of CAD work to do before I tackle any of these, which will allow me to work out some building issues before I even build, along with getting advice for design improvements from forums like this.
thanks for all the great response,
Andre