CNC Mills that double as manual machines

[grweldon]

I have a 45 year old Cincinatti Horizontal that we currently use to do woodruff keyways on long (20') shafts. I have a budget this year to replace this machine, but I would like to have the capability of a CNC machine. The boss says he wants to be able to use the mill as a manual machine, but I want the flexibility to be able to run small parts using CNC as the machine will be underutilized doing only shafts.

I've looked at the Proto/Trak knee and bed machines and the Haas TM-2 machine. I've looked at the Milltronics bed mill series, but they don't have handwheels, in fact, I don't know of any other machines with handwheels. I'm hoping I can get some leads to other machines that do?

I am not interested in retrofitting a new/used manual mill.

My budget, including tooling, tooling storage, rigging and hookup is $35,000. Although I've been in the industry for years, I'm not very familiar with this type of machine. Is anybody out there who is?

BTW, the Proto/Trak construction didn't impress me too much, while the Haas TM-2 was very impressive. Impressions count, but aren't the complete story mind you...

Suggestions? Advice? Leads? All would be appreciated!

[JDenyer232]

Well our Fanuc CNC has a manual mode that you can use the manual pulse generator as a handle and a jog mode where you can set the feed rate then move whichever axis you want. Hope this helps.

[Andre' B]

Putting hand wheels on a CNC machine is a compromise. You end up with a hard to use manual machine and a less then perfect CNC machine that is overpriced because of all the extra stuff that to support the manual machine stuff. Without the hand wheels they can put the servos and ball screws in the best location as defined by physics rather then where it is easy for the operator to reach them.

On the CNC machines I have seen with hand wheels the people running them stopped using the hand wheels after a very short time because it was so much easier to use the CNC jog buttons or the pendent or even MDI and just punch in a short program.

[DSL PWR]

I have a Haas TM 1, and I'm sure they put those hand wheels on just to coax some manual "only" guys to buy the machine. I haven't used them even once. In the manual jog mode you can do anything you would want to do with hand wheels. You can go with the pulse generator (move a little as .0001") or with the jog buttons (set the feed as you see fit).

[shaun88]

I have been using a trak mill for four years and a trak lathe for eight these machines are indispensable. You can buy a brand new fmh7, 7hp spindle x,y,z, travel 60",23"23" respectively for about 60g's. The trak mill I have been using paid for itself in a mater of months, it is the perfect machine for small lot job’s and one of prototyping. The haas machines that come equipped with tool changers require interlocks and are inoperable with the doors open. The programming of the trak mills and lathes are so easy you will be programming in the first day. I would highly recommend these machines and the extra cost is quickly returned with the capability even your boss will be programming in no time.

[grweldon]

Nahhh...the boss is an accountant. No programming there!

Thank you both for your opinions. I know that the handwheels are just a novelty, but we have guys in the shop that don't know and don't care to know anything about a CNC control. It intimidates them. I just want to get a CNC machine in here to do the small one-sies and two-sies we currently do on a large radial drill press. I plan to write all the programs.

Thanks again....

[Geof]

Originally Posted by grweldon Nahhh...the boss is an accountant. No programming there!....

If he does not have the smarts to learn programming he must be a questionable accountant. I taught myself G code programming and I have a doctorate in biological chemistry.

[grweldon]

I report to the General Manager. I believe he COULD learn, but he has no need to. He hires people who do that....like me!

[DareBee]

There are a lot of controls that you don't need to know anything about programming.
The FAGOR or ANILAM, for instance, if you want to cut a pocket you push the pocket button, then you look at the picture of the pocket on the screen and type in the dimensions and the feedrate and THEN push the big green button.
Your tool and part has to be zeroed first so the control knows where the are, but it is EXTREMELY simple.
I will never buy another knee mill without a 3 axis CNC kit on it (you will be unhappy very quickly if you only get a 2 axis machine).

BTW your budget is on the very bottom of the price range for a new CNC mill of any sort.

[One of Many]

If you intend on using a CNC, it is very unadvisable to use that style of machine manually without servo control. The cutter can and will pull the table into more material than the cutter can handle or an operator can muscle, so in effect, operation becomes a conventional cut only\drill press type limited machine. Putting a part time operator in that circumstance is asking for troubles. Even an experienced manual machinist would cringe trying to cut on a low friction machine slide with no table locks just for the sake of using it manually.

I can speak from experience, someone will end up with broken cutters and sore knuckles way before they have time to get their hand on the E-Stop. Notice the mills that do include manual hand wheels have no hand cranks or they are spring loaded and never stationary?

DC

[grweldon]

A Haas TM1 with a few options fits nicely, and I believe the TM2 with a 20 tool changer fits. I'd be a first time Haas buyer so there would be a slight discount for that. I'm seriously looking at those two mills, but you can't get more than a 10 tool changer with the TM-1. The Proto/TRAK DPM-SX2 with a few options fits. The Milltronics RH-19 is pushing the budget, but I think I could get the quote to fit after dickering with the distributor. The Milltronics lacks handwheels, the other two have them. All are full 3-axis machines.

I've been looking for a few months, and I'd love to have about $10K more, but you gotta do what you gotta do! Any of them would be better than nothing!

[Turningman]

once you learn the control you wont do anything manually anyway so dont worry about that. get the full blown cnc and learn it, its usually faster either way. just my thought.s