CNC / Vert Mill research blues: Beating my head against a wall.

[Skyshark]

Hey guys, first let me make this clear - I'm new to metalworking, having found my way over here through woodworking - specifically, INCRA woodshop equipment sparking my desire to learn to mill metal. So please bear with yet another fng / stupid newbie asking stupid newbie questions that have probably been answered over and over again.

2nd, I'm going to take some time to explain my situation. I'd like to learn how to mill, with the end goal of learning how to CNC my own designs. I work in the knife industry and have my own products / designs I'd like to make, so I'll be working in 6061, 7075, 440, 154-CM, S30V, 6AL4V, G10 and some other materials. I am not looking to set up a large shop or factory. I do not have access to a huge workshop area. Let me emphasize this: I do not have a huge garage / shop area available. So for you guys who are going to immediately say, "Buy a bridgeport!" I'll respond with "I'd love to, but that isn't in the cards, right now."

My location choices are: the basement of my house (optimal), the warehouse of my work (suboptimal, as I don't want to drive 20mi to tinker with designs), and my garage (worst of all, since there's no room, no place to park my truck if not in the garage, it's unheated, and we have a high break-in and vandalism rate here). Not to mention the commander will unleash her fury on me if it's in the garage.

So, that leads us to 3: what I've done thus far. I've been searching, googling, and reading through this forum for over a week now, collecting more information. I'm now asking for advice, because my meager knowledge is depleted.

The idea is to machine items, be it firearms accessories, sharp pointy things, or other misc & sundry stuff, that will measure from 2" long (small knife handle scales), 17" or more long (large fixed blade knives), or 30" pieces of aluminum (not likely but it's nice to dream). Yes, I know the restrictions on making firearms myself, I've done the research on this so we don't need to waste time with that discussion - I'm not going to break the law. I've spent too much money on my suppressors and machineguns to have them taken away for doing something stupid in my home shop. I just want to get my accessory designs down and do home work / prototyping before having large shops do the actual production on my product designs that I've come up with.

The ideal would be to find a

• knee mill of some sort,
• with head tilt & swivel,
• already set up for CNC,
• with a nice large table
• with the ability to contour cut,
• (if CNC, allows manual setup too)
• no taller than 86",
• able to be broken down enough to get into my basement through 30" doors
• runs on single phase, or can be converted to single phase
• for under 7k preferably, under 10k max.

Research thus far has shown me that this doesn't seem possible. No way I'd be able to break down a bridgeport that small, and it'd be too tall regardless.

My forum members (bladeforums.com) recommended Sherline initially, but research here shows they aren't sturdy enough, and there isn't enough X/Y/Z travel for me. Further research lead me to the X2, then the X3 / Super X3, but I have doubts about it's ability to machine something like an AR-15 upper receiver to the tolerances I want. In addition, it seems to lack the head tilt & rotate options I want, which just many not be possible without a knee mill (again, I'm ignorant & new on this subject). From what I gather, it's more important that the head tilt than rotate anyhow, since I can always add a rotary table to the machine for an additional axis of movement.

So, here I am. What's the next direction I should look in? Should I be focusing on Tormach? Industrial Hobbies looks good but is really lacking in information on their site. I called Microkinetics today, and they should be sending me a quote, but it seems that their head swivels around the base but doesn't tilt. Basically, I'm getting very frustrated and don't know if I'm looking in the right directions, or even what I should be looking for at this point.

[DSL PWR]

Tormach, Industrial Hobbies, Smithycnc, and Syil (x3), are your choices. A 4th axis will be better than trying to dial in a swivel head imo, and have more uses.

[ckm]

I would say it depends on how much money you have. There are a number of small mills out there that would fit in a basement, but they cost upwards of $60k.

At the other end of the scale, you can build a mill for $1000 and stiffen it as you go. Tolerances will be good in aluminum, but not in steels. HOWEVER, if you are only prototyping, then perhaps aluminum is good enough.

Finally, I would really caution you about expecting a really easy design -> prototype sequence unless you have a lot of experience with CAM. Getting just the right set of of software and enough knowledge to quickly produce what you want can cost just as much time and $$$ as building or buying a mill. And don't get me started on fixturing.

Chris.

[DareBee]

You will likely have to forget about 30" X and settle for 12 - 15. Also forget about head tilt/swivel, this can be accomplished by 4th axis and/or fixturing.
DSL already has mentioned the viable options to cover you other specifications.
Just a note: Lets say you buy an X3 for $6500? Be prepared to spend that amount again on your computer, CAM, fixtures and tooling (IMO).

[MikeWB]

Originally Posted by Skyshark The idea is to machine items, ... I just want to get my accessory designs down and do home work / prototyping ... The ideal would be to find a knee mill of some sort, with head tilt & swivel, already set up for CNC, with a nice large table with the ability to contour cut, (if CNC, allows manual setup too) no taller than 86", able to be broken down enough to get into my basement through 30" doors runs on single phase, or can be converted to single phase for under 7k preferably, under 10k max. Research thus far has shown me that this doesn't seem possible. No way I'd be able to break down a bridgeport that small, and it'd be too tall regardless. So, here I am. What's the next direction I should look in? ... Basically, I'm getting very frustrated and don't know if I'm looking in the right directions, or even what I should be looking for at this point.

Skyshark,

I know your feelings. When the bug hits I gotta have it now !! I started out that way too but now three years later, my mill is nearly converted to CNC. If you want to buy some big iron and convert it yourself you can save a lot of money and have a great machine. I'm converting a Grizzly vertical/horizontal knee milling machine to CNC control now. I think it is less that 86" tall ! The mill is about $4300 with shipping and I have spent about $1600 on the conversion so far. With motors and software I will spend another $1400 ? But when I am done, its all mine !
Another searcher, Coolman started a thread in the General Metal Working Machines forum about buying a mill and converting it to CNC. I gave him some magazine articles that really helped me get my conversion going. If you are interested, go to that forum and search the fourm for "Coolman" and you will get two of his threads. One is his question about buying a mill and converting it.
The other option is keep searching CNCzone. This is a wonderful collection of human knowledge on machining and electronics. I learned a lot here and it made my conversion possible (almost done ...). The search is tough but as you get around the forums you begin to see the structure and are able to select new and better search words. The results are worth the time it takes to do the research !

I hope you are successful in your research and decide to go with a mill conversion.

Cheers,

Mike

[Caprirs]

I agree with what's been said so far. A machine with 30" travel that will cut stainless steel and can be hand carried to the basement isn't going to happen.

You have ruled out a knee mill due to height. It is certainly rigid enough and has enough travel to fit your needs. Thus, a knee mill would work if you change the basement requirement.

A bridge gantry is too flimsy to cut stainless steel. It can have a large work envelope and could probably be carried into the basement. It will not cut close tolerance in metals typically, especially if you're trying to make machined parts that mate to each other like the slide of a handgun. So if you want to do precise metal work, you will be unhappy with the bridge gantry types.

I think you have done an excellent job of defining your needs, which many folks don't do. However, I also think you have some requirements in conflict.

What about your neighbor's garage? Does he have space for rent?

[Skyshark]

Some good responses thus far! Thanks guys!

DSL - I didn't know about SmithyCNC, thank you for that information. Glad to see that my lack of knowledge isn't too far off the mark.

CKM - Upper limit is $10 as stated, so a $40 VMC from Haas will not work. I'm of the mindset that I'd rather buy quality once than trying to rig up something or put lipstick on a pig. Retrofitting a bridgeport will be better than trying to make some gantry on my own from what I've seen.

I don't expect this to be easy or quick, nothing good ever is; skills have to be earned. That said, I'd rather spend my time learning instead of fixing.

DareBee - the IH and some of the others I've seen have larger X, but the Tormach is limited, you are right. I haven't forgotten about tooling either, I have a separate budget for that stuff. Computer isn't a problem, I've got a bunch of those sitting around Software isn't going to be a problem either. But the accessories... well to butcher a phrase, they are the spice of life.

MikeWB - Glad to hear I'm not alone there. I've actually considered buying a full CNC micro, learning on that, and converting a full size at the same time... but that's not going to work for me in the long run. Thanks for the heads up on the research - I'd already found Coolman's thread and read it over. Thanks for the tip on the Digital Machinist magazine as well - I just called them and ordered copies.

Caprirs - Yeah, that's what I expected. Basement location pretty much eliminates the ability for a full size mill. Stupid basement! I don't mind breaking stuff down to 200-300lb sections, I know my stairs can handle that - I was able to get my gun safe down there no problem. 1000lb chunks however... that is a no go. You are right about the requirements in conflict which is why I listed the "ideal" set up, not the "must have", and am asking for your guy's knowledge and experience on guiding me down the right path. As much as I'd love to machine a clone of a LMT Monolithic Upper for personal use, I know that's unrealistic for now. That said, there's nothing stopping me from making 17" and smaller items like fixed blade knives, folders, and motorcycle parts on a smaller mill, right? Semper Gumby!

I agree with you on the gantry style, which is why I haven't even bothered including them on my list of possibilities. The neighbor's are a no go as well, unfortunately. I'd sell my motorcycle before I worked with the neighbors.

[DSL PWR]

I got a TM-1 early this spring, and the tooling is probably more expensive than drugs. I have about 10k in tooling right now. I got 5k right at the start and have been adding to it ever since. I figure once I'm done I'll have more in tooling than the mill! For cad/cam I'm using one cnc express (2.5d).

If this scares you just go and get yourself some good coke or meth and not much else will matter.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Just to add to your research load, look up the European "tool room mills" like Hermle, Micron, Maho, Deckel etc. These are the results of a joint research project from University at Aachen, Germany. They were all manual machines originally but are now CNC.

Some models of the early ones were small enough for your basement. Some had small horizontal quill type spindles as well as a tilting vertical head with its own quill type spindle.

The vertical axis wasn't a "knee" as on a BP but used a T-slotted plate guided on ways. Various tables were attached to this plate. A plain T-slot table or a "universal" rotary table that could be tilted right-left or toward the front or rear. Various dividing heads, tables and fixtures could also be fastened to the plate rather than the ones mentioned above.

These machines were available in sizes from jewelry making size to large mold making.

Just thought I might add to you confusion and workload. BTW, a guy I used to work with put a 3" G&L boring bar in his basement by cutting a hole thru the roof and living room floor and then remodeled same. His ex-wife didn't like it much.

[ckm]

Originally Posted by Skyshark Some good responses thus far! Thanks guys! CKM - Upper limit is $10 as stated, so a $40 VMC from Haas will not work. I'm of the mindset that I'd rather buy quality once than trying to rig up something or put lipstick on a pig. Retrofitting a bridgeport will be better than trying to make some gantry on my own from what I've seen. I don't expect this to be easy or quick, nothing good ever is; skills have to be earned. That said, I'd rather spend my time learning instead of fixing.

I have seen some small mills, esp. tapping centers, with burnt out electronics for >$10k. These are fully enclosed and fairly small. You might try a local machinery dealer to see what they have around.

Chris.

[Skyshark]

That's a good idea Chris - one of the great knifemakers in my industry, Kevin Wilkins, uses a Haas for his work... he was even featured in the Haas magazine recently. The thing is, my upper limit is still pretty much the same, so I can't just buy a (roughly) 10K fried Haas, then spend another 10k fixing it, you know? How much does it typically cost to replace the electronics on something like that, anyhow?

That said, I'll definitely call around to the local dealers and see if they have anything like that, thank you for the suggestion.

Honestly, I'm not even sure I need a "knee" style mill - I just want something with the rigidity to cut 18" of steel when I get into that level of processing & design work.

Someone sniped me on a bridgeport I was bidding for on ebay tonight though I'll keep trying.

[Caprirs]

The LMT part you point to is detailed enough to justify a 4th axis if you're going to make a few. Or you can just make fixtures to hold the piece for each operation.

There are benchtop machines that are rigid enough to cut stainless steels with high precision, but obviously they don't have 18" travels. Larger machines that will cut 18" and fit in the basement probably won't hold the kinds of tolerance you would be happy with. And a machine that will make 18" parts to precise tolerance won't fit down the stairs.

Time for a new house with a bigger garage.