What does your business do with older CNC equipment?

[sbalder]

I am a hobbyist, not a machinist, but it seems to me that there is a major problem in the industry- the hardware on a good cnc mill or lathe can last for decades, but most all controls become obsolete and all but impossible to support within a few years. Is this right? So a shop with a machine that has been cranking out good parts for a decade craps out- What are the choices?:

+Bring in a service tech and try to bring it back to life.
+Retrofit it with new electronics.
+Park it out back and hope someone steals it.

I guess I'm asking because I have now picked up 2 machines dirt cheap that were in good mechanical shape, but had electronics that were shot and needed to be gutted. Are these the only options a shop has? What do you do in your businesses? It seems that any of these options leaves a lot of economic value to waste.

[gridley51]

Amongst others I have a Siemens 6T(Fanuc 6T) on a 1980 W&S Universal,it`s reliable and and earns me money.I also have 1985 GE2000`s running on Churchill lathes,same again reliable and make money.I think it`s all to do with the original quality of the machine and control,you get what you pay for.If you buy cheap new don`t expect to be able to do much with it after 8-10 years.
What are you basing your assumption that controls become obsolete on?

[sbalder]

Good point about quality. I think use and care have to go into the equation too. The machines I got were obviously filthy and poorly maintained, and I don't mean from sitting after they were parked.

If you can get parts/support and the software interface works well than I would agree that it is not obsolete.

[Al_The_Man]

Originally Posted by sbalder I guess I'm asking because I have now picked up 2 machines dirt cheap that were in good mechanical shape, but had electronics that were shot and needed to be gutted. .

I have been to many auctions where the Manual machines that have been far older than the CNC ones and their price has exceeded the CNC, sometimes by quite a margin, the CNC 'age' faster I guess. This is usually because a CNC probabally gets a harder work out over its life span, and the controls age faster.
Often there are bargains to be had, but then the problem is the freight is almost as much as the machine itself.
Al.

[bob1112]

Deleted.

[gridley51]

"I notice the same thing Al and I think it is more because most people do not want to understand the concept of CNC machines and it overloads the brain. I don't know how many older guys I have talked to that insist that manual "machines are the may to go". All because they would not have a clue how to tool up and program a part correctly. I see those engine lathes pulling big bucks and for what? Sheesh, no ball screws, no reversal comp, hell, I would get lost just trying to make an accurate part on something like that".

I wish I had ten bucks for everytime I`ve heard that,usually from people who could not switch a manual machine on.Do you seriously believe that the old timer puts a piece of metal in a chuck or a vice and wonders how he is going to make the part?No,he`s looked at the drawing and mentally decided on the order of operations,the tools he`s going to use and the feeds and speeds he`s running at.
If you need proof look at the questions on the forums,you will never see a manual turner asking what speed he should do this or that at.No,it is the newbies and the button pushers who ask these questions.
There will always be work for centre lathe turners not quite as much for millers.There are very few cnc lathes with four jaw chucks but there are plenty jobs that won`t go in a three jaw or a collet.
I have manual and cnc machines and the cnc machines make the most money but if I could find skilled turners I could earn as much from manual machines.I`ve been in this business forty years and now more than ever there is a demand for apprentice trained skilled men who know and understand the basics and who don`t need a computer to help them produce an accurate part.
Rant over.
Mark.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man I have been to many auctions where the Manual machines that have been far older than the CNC ones and their price has exceeded the CNC, sometimes by quite a margin, the CNC 'age' faster I guess. ....Al.

Have you checked the price and availability of decent sized of good or top quality manual machines? I think one reason that used manual machines which are probably medium size and good quality can go for higher than used CNC is that they are difficult to replace; not as many are available new any more and the ones that are can be more expensive than CNC's in some cases.

[Caprirs]

There are some CNCs that get refurbished. For example, there was a place in Oregon or Washington rebuilding Fadals for the factory. If you visit Fadal's website, you'll see they sell re-built machines with certain updates.

There are also a lot of used machine dealers who buy the older machines, strip the electrics and install a retro-fit control from Fagor, Mitsubishi, or numerous others.

Another aspect is the tax issue on old machines. Depending on how the machine has been depreciated, it might be financially better to hang on to it for a while rather than sell it and pay taxes on the recovered value. Say I buy a machine for $100K and fully depreciate that over five years. The machine might still be worth $60K so I might be subject to the tax on that $60K if I sold it.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Caprirs .....Another aspect is the tax issue on old machines. Depending on how the machine has been depreciated, it might be financially better to hang on to it for a while rather than sell it and pay taxes on the recovered value. Say I buy a machine for $100K and fully depreciate that over five years. The machine might still be worth $60K so I might be subject to the tax on that $60K if I sold it.

No "might" about it; the amount by which the selling price exceeds the depriciated value is net income. In Canada it is know as Capital Cost Recapture or something like that and if you don't know about it, sell a machine and then spend all the money on a new machine you can get hit at tax time. Often the amount available for depreciation the year of purchase is reduced so you finish up having to pay tax on money you have already spent.

[bob1112]

Originally Posted by gridley51 "I notice the same thing Al and I think it is more because most people do not want to understand the concept of CNC machines and it overloads the brain. I don't know how many older guys I have talked to that insist that manual "machines are the may to go". All because they would not have a clue how to tool up and program a part correctly. I see those engine lathes pulling big bucks and for what? Sheesh, no ball screws, no reversal comp, hell, I would get lost just trying to make an accurate part on something like that". I wish I had ten bucks for everytime I`ve heard that,usually from people who could not switch a manual machine on.Do you seriously believe that the old timer puts a piece of metal in a chuck or a vice and wonders how he is going to make the part?No,he`s looked at the drawing and mentally decided on the order of operations,the tools he`s going to use and the feeds and speeds he`s running at. If you need proof look at the questions on the forums,you will never see a manual turner asking what speed he should do this or that at.No,it is the newbies and the button pushers who ask these questions. There will always be work for centre lathe turners not quite as much for millers.There are very few cnc lathes with four jaw chucks but there are plenty jobs that won`t go in a three jaw or a collet. I have manual and cnc machines and the cnc machines make the most money but if I could find skilled turners I could earn as much from manual machines.I`ve been in this business forty years and now more than ever there is a demand for apprentice trained skilled men who know and understand the basics and who don`t need a computer to help them produce an accurate part. Rant over. Mark.

Did not mean to rattle your chain there. I guess in my experience, The guys I am refering to do NOT know what they are doing and it does not apply to all. I "thought" they were machinists until I asked questions like idea surface ft for say 304 stainless or something. They do not even know how to calculated surface feet and many of the manual machines I have seen have like 3-4 speeds so you just hope it is in the window. But for that matter, many button pushers I know don't know what surface feet is either.

I got to run a manual lathe before and it was an experience and like you say, I had to figure out how to even turn it on. I guess everyone has their nitch.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by viper6383 ....and many of the manual machines I have seen have like 3-4 speeds so you just hope it is in the window....

I thought about making uncomplimentary comments about button pushers but I will restrain myself to saying you should find out if any shop in your area has or had Preoptive Herbert Turret lathes. Some of these had sixteen speeds and could change speed on the fly; it was possible to do facing manually with a sort-of constant surface speed. Wards were the US made equivalent but I don't think they quite matched the Herberts. Good quality manual machines were in many ways more complicated and much more expensive to make, I think, than CNC's.

[gridley51]

Hi Geoff.
Please tell me more about the American built Wards.I`m sure thousands of ex Ward people in Birmingham,England will be interested too.
Mark.