SooperNoob needs advice

[JumboShrimp]

Hi all
I've been lurking for a while and its time to pop my posting cherry.
Short story: My dad was an engineer for SKF - he used to take me into the plant when I was a kid. I was always fascinated by the cool stuff that was being made (created) by really talented guys & I always loved the smell (CimCool, I think). So now I'm pushing 50 and have been fabbing things all my life. Some of it pretty crude but all of it did what I told it to I am currently building a '33 Willys StreetRod...So I think I need a Mill to make all the one off stuff involved in a project like this.
It looks like the IH will be all the tool I will ever need and I've talked to Gene (new owner) - super nice guy BTW! I also have the chance to buy a JET JMD-18 Round Col. Mill/Drill for <$900 but most of you steer clear of the Round Col machines... Its 1/2 the price but I think the IH is 5X the machine - comments?
Here's my ?'s... where can I learn to run a mill?? My local VOTECH skools don't offer ANY machining classes for the adult student (sux)! Are there videos that you gurus recommend? Anything worth while online? Books that are written for the beginner? Where can I learn the terminology? - What do Parallels do? What does an indexing table do? - see what I mean - SooperNoob!! I hope to be able to be a contributor to this 4M eventually - rather than a sponge...
Any help would be really, well..helpful.
Thanx... Mike

[little bubba]

Wow, you sure do want to know a lot. As for the mills, I couldn't tell you, but stay away from the smaller stuff, it just gets frustrating.

As for learning info and terminology, you're on the right track, these message boards are great. The other two rather active ones that are very handy are homeshopmachinist.net and cnczone.com.

Don't be afraid of the CNC forums, you may not need to ask a question there, but the basics are still all the same, and you can pick up some really cool ideas and a lot of knowledge.

Grab some beer and a notebook, read all the threads you can, take notes. Sign up for every tooling catalog you can get your hands on. I'm a J&L fan, nice big color pics. Grab an Enco and Travers catalog, also color with pics. Make up a business name and sign up for American Machinist, Tooling and production, there are a bunch of others that are in the can at work that are slipping my mind.

As for terminology, somebody, somewhere on one of these boards actually put together a terminology dictionary. What are parallels? blocks of steel that are the same size, usually used to hold parts up in a vice, they are also useful for many many other things. What does and Indexing Table do? Anything your imagination can make it do.

Ask a bunch of questions on these boards. There are tons of people out there like me that love to type about something they love to do.

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by JumboShrimp Hi all I've been lurking for a while and its time to pop my posting cherry. Short story: My dad was an engineer for SKF - he used to take me into the plant when I was a kid. I was always fascinated by the cool stuff that was being made (created) by really talented guys & I always loved the smell (CimCool, I think). So now I'm pushing 50 and have been fabbing things all my life. Some of it pretty crude but all of it did what I told it to I am currently building a '33 Willys StreetRod...So I think I need a Mill to make all the one off stuff involved in a project like this. It looks like the IH will be all the tool I will ever need and I've talked to Gene (new owner) - super nice guy BTW! I also have the chance to buy a JET JMD-18 Round Col. Mill/Drill for <$900 but most of you steer clear of the Round Col machines... Its 1/2 the price but I think the IH is 5X the machine - comments? Here's my ?'s... where can I learn to run a mill?? My local VOTECH skools don't offer ANY machining classes for the adult student (sux)! Are there videos that you gurus recommend? Anything worth while online? Books that are written for the beginner? Where can I learn the terminology? - What do Parallels do? What does an indexing table do? - see what I mean - SooperNoob!! I hope to be able to be a contributor to this 4M eventually - rather than a sponge... Any help would be really, well..helpful. Thanx... Mike

I don't even know were to start, I would bet there are clasess to be had you just have to look into it farther. They might be named machine tool operations or something like that. Another option would be basic tool and die clasess. Henry Ford and Southbend had books on how to run lathes, not sure about mills check the website www.lindsaybks.com in this particular case I think its better you look for older books to start. I can recomend a book "Machinery" when I get home it I will dig it up and get the specs for it. I think you may want to look into home shop machinst also, they do tons of things in there and have alot books esp for the second level above begineer. I would wonder though why do you think you need a mill to do a street rod, that IMHO is more welding and sheet metal work then milling-not that you couldnt use it.
Terminolgy varies to some extent, esp when it comes to pronoucing measurements, but they are all written the same way. I encourage people to start on a lathe if possible, as its simpler to understand the process, but again not really a needed thing. The best teacher is watching someone do it who has done it for years(not many of those people left as a trade) on manual machines. There are things that you really cannot pickup from books like grinding tools, I have yet to see a good ilustration of tool grinding. Reading alot of the forums is a good way to start though continue on being that sponge I suspect if you are asking about indexer you have only scratched the surface.
Chris

[JumboShrimp]

Thanx for the replys - I've looked in the 3 surrounding counties for Adult Ed training. Nuth'n - they do offer "career in a year' classes but they are daytime for unemployed people looking to make themselves hire-able...I have 2 businesses, 4 kids and a wife that works full time - I work harder AFTER WORK than during!!
I've already taken a nite class for welding - best $110 I ever spent. The car I'm building is fiberglass so I'm not interested (yet) in learning sheet metal work.
I inherited a 1942 Logan 200 lathe (10x24) that has been just sitting for MANY MOONS - I'm in the process of dis-assembly and cleaning so I can get it to work again. That is why I want a Mill - already have a lathe (that I need to learn to operate) and a drillpress. I don't want a 3-1 Smithy or the like. They seem to get the least respect and I see why.
I WILL find some way to learn these skills. I would rather have one of each - Mill-drill-lathe than a 3-1 and if Mill/Drills don't mill all that well then why spend $900 for a fancy DrillPress?? Do you think the Mill/Drill combo is worth the $$ if I can buy it right?? or just have 'the company I work' for buy the Sq. Col IH? (that company sure buys a lot of tools!)
Thanx again - anybody else care to share some wisdom??
Mike

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Mike, The number one book ALL MACHINIST'S should have is "Machinery's Handbook" (yes that's the correct title spelling). The center drawer of most real machinists tool boxes are designed to fit this book. If you can find one (for milling only) "A Treatise On Milling And Milling Machines" attributed to The Cincinnati Milling Machine Co. (mine is from my apprenticeship. copyright 1951 third edition) I'm sure there are later books out there and will be recommended as well. The speed, feed etc. info is readily available from the suppliers tech sections of their catalogs, mostly also on line.

[wizard]

Originally Posted by JumboShrimp Thanx for the replys - I've looked in the 3 surrounding counties for Adult Ed training.

Sounds like around here. Manufactures are crying for machinist and such yet somebody thinking of a career change is out of luck. Somebody like yourself, that is us guys interested in machining from other angles, are totally out of luck.

Nuth'n - they do offer "career in a year' classes but they are daytime for unemployed people looking to make themselves hire-able...I have 2 businesses, 4 kids and a wife that works full time - I work harder AFTER WORK than during!! I've already taken a nite class for welding - best $110 I ever spent.

Same story around here welding classes all over the place.

The car I'm building is fiberglass so I'm not interested (yet) in learning sheet metal work. I inherited a 1942 Logan 200 lathe (10x24) that has been just sitting for MANY MOONS - I'm in the process of dis-assembly and cleaning so I can get it to work again.

Do realize that getting that lathe up to good operating condition is very important. Also lathes can be used for simple milling. Plus outfitting yourself for operation of this lathe is not free.

That is why I want a Mill - already have a lathe (that I need to learn to operate) and a drillpress. I don't want a 3-1 Smithy or the like.

While I agree that you don't want the Smithy 3 in 1's do realize that Smithy has introduced a whole range of CNC mills some of which are very compelling. In other words don't discount them due to their historical association with 3 in 1's.

They seem to get the least respect and I see why.

Many 3 in 1's are or where totally useless. I can't really say that about the Smithies since I've not seen many up close. The one I have seen seemed to be well assembled. The bigger issue with 3 in 1 machines is that of the issues with the frequent setups and teardowns. Capacity issues are also real on these machines. In any event in your case you are on the right track, a 3 in 1 is the wrong investment when you consider the nice lathe you have.

I WILL find some way to learn these skills. I would rather have one of each - Mill-drill-lathe than a 3-1 and if Mill/Drills don't mill all that well then why spend $900 for a fancy DrillPress??

While I wouldn't recommends a fancy drill press as ones first machine tool fancy drill presses have their place.

Do you think the Mill/Drill combo is worth the $$ if I can buy it right?? or just have 'the company I work' for buy the Sq. Col IH? (that company sure buys a lot of tools!)

If you already have a drill press you might as well invest in a machine solely oriented towards milling. At some point though looking at a Bridgeport will make a lot of sense. Especially for its flexibility, Bridgeport's can't be beat.

Thanx again - anybody else care to share some wisdom?? Mike

Yeah #1 is that getting started takes more money than most of use would at first estimate. You have a lathe for example that you are about to get ready, but how much tooling do you have with it. Everything from calipers to boring bars to drill bits to coolant systems. Lots of stuff to contend with to get up and going with a lathe, a mill just adds to that. The machines are just a hunk of iron with out the cutting tools to turn the metal into chips. Further without the right sort of machinist tools to lay out and measure those parts a lot of chips can be wasted while building parts that don't work. In other words look at the cost of a small mill and expect 1 to 2X that in tooling costs. Done right much of this is an upfront cost.

Others have mentioned the issue of educating ones self. This frankly is the only way in most locals. The only thing you might try doing is looking for a local machining/metal working club. Another possibility is a local steam engine/train club (these guys are very interesting actually building fully functional trains in scale). Frankly I find it frustrating also in the lack of offerings for "after work" formal education. Also sign up for as many of the hobby magazines related to machining that you can. I say that after just literally writing the check for "The Home Shop Machinist".

A note on the magazines, there are a number of them and some from England are considered very good. I've learned a lot to be frank from such publications. They are not precisely oriented to the beginner either but are balanced none the less. You still need to find good texts that fill in the bald spots if you will.

Dave

[JumboShrimp]

Wizzard:
Great reply - I live in Altoona, PA - THE railroad capital of the world - there's GOTTA be some 'older gentlemen' here that make mini K-4 locomotives and have been doing it for 1/2 a lifetime!! Great Idea!!!!!
I'm in the lawncare business - some of my 2200+ customers are retired RR guys...Hell, I even take care of my JR high Shop teacher's lawn - Betyerass I'll be knock'n on HIS door B-4 the weekend is over.
Just like all the StreetRod forums I watch - this is a GREAT PLACE - full of GREAT people willing to give of their time to help out...THANKS!!!
One way or another I'm gonna be able to make ANYTHING i want using these machine but I'm smart enough to know that I've got a long row to hoe...
Mike

[in2steam]

Originally Posted by JumboShrimp Thanx for the replys - I've looked in the 3 surrounding counties for Adult Ed training. Nuth'n - they do offer "career in a year' classes but they are daytime for unemployed people looking to make themselves hire-able...I have 2 businesses, 4 kids and a wife that works full time - I work harder AFTER WORK than during!! I've already taken a nite class for welding - best $110 I ever spent. The car I'm building is fiberglass so I'm not interested (yet) in learning sheet metal work. I inherited a 1942 Logan 200 lathe (10x24) that has been just sitting for MANY MOONS - I'm in the process of dis-assembly and cleaning so I can get it to work again. That is why I want a Mill - already have a lathe (that I need to learn to operate) and a drillpress. I don't want a 3-1 Smithy or the like. They seem to get the least respect and I see why. I WILL find some way to learn these skills. I would rather have one of each - Mill-drill-lathe than a 3-1 and if Mill/Drills don't mill all that well then why spend $900 for a fancy DrillPress?? Do you think the Mill/Drill combo is worth the $$ if I can buy it right?? or just have 'the company I work' for buy the Sq. Col IH? (that company sure buys a lot of tools!) Thanx again - anybody else care to share some wisdom?? Mike

I hope that you are very careful on your restoration of the lathe, many have found there way apart and never back together. Its a good way to learn, but before you try and do something you are not sure of ask, you might regret it latter on.
As for the book, its actually called "Metal Work Techonology and Practice" by Victor E. Repp Glencloe press my copywright date is 1994 nineth edition. It is an very good primer, designed for someone who has little to no metal working. It covers all metal working machines and processes, I used it when I went through tech(millwright/machine repair) school and found it almost as import as the machinerys handbook. Machinerys hand book is important, but I think as a beginner you would not need it to work with simple processes, I can tell you the older the version the better(although that may preclude the lattest version) I have the last one (blue)and its more suited to an engineer then a machinest. I have used copys from the 50-60's and they seem the best for modern home shop work, not that the new version does not contain the updated info its just how they lay it out.

A good drill press is hard to get these days, I would either buy a mill drill with the expressed purpose of using it as a drill only, or an older drill. I have not been impressed by any drill press made with in the last decade. Most are designed for wood and not metal working, esp larger diameter drills. A good old rockwell, a delta milwaukee, Electro-mechano( I used to work for them) and just a few, I am sure others can name some good new DP's but I cannot.

If you intend on one day doing CNC then you might for go the above, but a good drill press with alot of reach can be handy, esp working on cars. In the end you will always want something else for a number of reasons, but if you have a workig lathe you can literally make anything else you want. Relize that a lathe can also drill, mill, bore, hone, grind, slot, and thread. Without doubt the lathe is the besides the credit card the most important metal shop tool.

You may want to get in touch with the pennsy. live steamers, I can find the info for you, they do lovely work mostly in 1"scale but some 1.5" scale.


chris (milwaukee light engineers) (and a full size steam locomotive fireman/mechanic).
BTW Chicago was the railroad capitol of the world, milwaukee was second, everyone else did not count- thats what an old german machinst from the milwaukee road told me.....

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Chris, I too come from "America's Job Shop". I definetely agree the older Handbooks were better. "Modern Machine Shop" publishes a similar book called "Handbook For The Metalworking Industries", same size as "Machinery's Handbook". Another handy one is "Machinists' Ready Reference" and it is cheap and available. Unfortunately it's more of a data / table book than a "how-to".

Mike, when you get into it, don't be afraid to ask. Lots of folks at this place willing to help.

[JumboShrimp]

Thanx for the help guys!! I'll get the books and start reading. I can see what you mean about taking the lathe apart and never getting it back together - kinda scary in there. I bought the manual from Scott Logan - not *real* helpful but better than nuth'n. Will be taking LOTS of pix during the process!
Thanx again - I'll try to keep you up to date on my successes / failures....
Mike

[Pressfit]

I would also recommend Audels books too. They're a great scource of the 'How To Do It" stuff that Machinery's Handbook doesn't cover. Ive got several and have found things in them highly valuable over the years. Especially in the 'Manual' department.
http://search.ebay.com/audels-machinists_W0QQfnuZ1

[layr]

Hello to everyone!
As i am also a supernoob, i didn't make another thread. I have searched this forum and WWW, but haven't found a good CNC machine basics (its parts, what are they used for etc). Right now the big picture is sort of clearing up, but still it is a bit confusing to read the forum/plans as i'm not familiar with the terminology (and again, the basics of CNC)
Maybe someone could throw a good link or something, that would be great

Laur