I need help choosing a mini electrical drill.

[Calvi]

Hello everybody,

I am sorry for disturbing you and maybe making you waste your time with a question that may seems ridiculous to you but I am no amateur nor a professional machinist. I am a bricolage amateur that needs help and has found this website and thinks is the best place to obtain the better advice.

My question is:

What mini electrical drill I must choose to make perfect -on both sides- spherical holes of very small diameter -1 to 5 mm, 0.03937" to 0.19685"- on soft and hard brass sheets of 0.2 and 0.3 mm - 0.00787" and 0.01181"
thickness?. The would be options being Proxxon FBS 240/E or Dremel 400 Digital models.

PROXXON MICROMOT FBS 240/E PRECISION DRILL/GRINDER.
For every conceivable operation: milling, drilling, grinding, polishing, brushing, cleaning, derusting, sawing, carving, engraving and much more.

The maximum speed of 20,000 rpm is continuously variable down to 5,000. The full wave electronic speed control results in virtually constant torque, even at lower speeds, great for micro drilling. The spindle runs in a precision ball bearing and is fitted with a lock button. The 20 mm collar fits MICROMOT drill stands and vices. Fitted with a quiet, high quality, specially balanced permanent magnet motor. The housing is of fibreglass-reinforced POLYAMIDE with comfort sections in the grip area. Supplied complete with 40 bits and cutters in a tough plastic case.
DREMEL 400 DIGITAL DRILL/GRINDER
This Dremel Kit is the premium offer in the range. The Dremel 400 Series Digital comes with 2 mini accessory cases, 80 accessories and 4 unique Dremel attachments in a spacious and highly convenient storage case. All together this kit offers the user maximum precision and control for many applications.
This execution is the supreme kit in the Dremel range, satisfying even the most demanding craftsman.
Technical Data:
5,000 - 20,000 rpm. Maximum power consumption 100 W, 220 - 240 V. Length 200 mm. Weight 450 g. Insulated to class 2 requirements. Keyless chuck 0.3 - 3.2 mm

Features & Benefits
• Slim housing design - Allows maximum control and excellent grip
• Variable speed control 5.000 - 33.000 RPM - For exact speed adjustment in 1.000 RPM increments
• LCD display - Shows exact speed settings
• Separate on/off switch - Provides increased control by keeping speed setting after tool is switched off
• 140W motor - For maximum performance
• Electronic feedback control - Enhances the torque and performance at low and mid range speeds
• Soft start function - Improves the lifetime of the motor
• Hang hook - For hanging the tool while working with the Flexible Shaft
Contents
• Dremel 400 Series Digital
• 80 high quality Dremel accessories in 2 Mini Accessory Cases
• High quality Flexible Shaft
• Line and Circle Cutter
•
• Cutting Guide Attachment
• Lawn Mower Sharpening Attachment
• Sturdy and spacious storage case
• Inspiring Welcome Poster
Technical specification
Rated power input: 140 W
Voltage: 230 V
Weight: 0,59 kg
No load speed: 5.000 - 33.000 1/min

Some other questions: Which speeds are the best to drill holes on both soft and hard brass sheets of both 0.2 and 0.3 mm thickness. The price of the Proxxon in my Country -Spain, Europe- is 75 Euros, about 95 USD and the price of the Dremel is 115 Euros. Do you think the 100 Wats power and 5.000 to 20.000 rounds per minute of the Proxxon will be enough for the task? And Any other thing I should know before starting to work?

Looking forward to receive your replies.

Best Regards.

Luis Mateos

[wizard]

I have no experience with the Proxxon, but I think you would need a higher quality machine than the Dremel. If you are going to be doing this a lot I'd suggest looking at higher end tooling such as might be found in a machine shop. Something optimized for small hole drilling such as an old SERVO drill pres. Servo being one brand of course, over the years there have been many manufactures of suitable drill presses.

These sorts of drill presses would be expensive new, at least here in the USA though we can find suitable used hardware. You could also take a slightly different track and use something like a Sherline or Taig mill with a high speed spindle. These are miniature milling machines and can often be found used also. Taig and Sherline don't have lock on miniature mills either, they just come to mind first, Cowells in england is a possibility too.

Dave

[Calvi]

Thank you very much Dave,

you have opened my mind to a whole new world of hobby. Machining has to be the ultimate experience. Unfortunately the problem with US made machinery that target US Domestic Market only is that the voltage of electric network in Spain is 220 Volts and according to what the American expatriates in Europe advice to their countryfellowmen coming to Europe in their forums bringing their electric appliances to Europe and using adaptors is useless. The machines finally end up out of work in the medium term. All the American manufacturers have factories in Europe that make their products adapted to European Voltages rangin from 220 or 230 Volts in the Continent to 240 in the British Isles. I can easily find a Dremel that will work well in Spain at any of my local hardware stores but finding a press drill made by the manufactures you mention is impossible. British manufacturer Cowells, On the other hand, makes the extremely versatile Standard Press Milling Machine that is not only suitable for milling but may also be used for co-ordinate drilling and flycutting metal plates. The price is very high but I have lived in the UK for 6 years and I have friends there that can make a search for a second hand mill for me. The Voltage would not be a problem for UK network works at 240 Volts and so the British machines are sturdy enough to resist 220 Volts with an adaptor without any trouble.

As result of the information you have gave me I have been surfing the net and I have realized of the many possibilities machining may offer to spend very good times handcrafting all kind of metal goods. In my case I enjoy scratchbuilding scale trains for railway modelism and what the French call Bricolage but the options machinig offers seem endless.

A million thanks again Dave and all the members of this forum for having make me discover what will be my exciting new hobby.

I expect to be in touch with members of this forum to learn from them everything I need about machining.

Cheers.

Luis Mateos

[wizard]

Thank you very much Dave,

you have opened my mind to a whole new world of hobby. Machining has to be the ultimate experience. Unfortunately the problem with US made machinery is that the voltage of electric network in Spain is 220 Volts and according to what the american expatriates in Europe tell in their forums bringing their electricals to Europe and using adaptors is useless.

I'd have to address this from a number of standpoints.

1.
You can not use adapters that don't effectively change the voltage of the incoming line. So in a sense they are right if they are talking about plug adapters. What you would need is a step down transformer and a motor that is 50/60Hz capable.

2.
Many American products come with dual voltage motors and can simply be rewired to 240 volts. Unfortunately this is not normally the case on such small machines. Most American homes are wired 120/240 and larger tools almost invariably have dual voltage motors.

3.
It is fairly easy to bolt a new motor onto an old machine. Something to keep in mind even if you buy local used machinery.

4.
The smart upgrades to machinery now a days is three phase motors run off an inverter. This offers a lot of flexibility with respect to speeds and such. Problem is though in your application I don't believe that 3 phase motors are a practical solution.

5.
If you can't find a local vendor for the American tools you can always try to special order the hardware with 50 Hz 240 volt motors. Obviously I don't know if this will work or even if the vendors will ship outside the US but it is worth trying. As you have noted the cost of this sort of hardware in Europe is outrageous, so it might be worth a try.

The machines finally end out of work in the medium term.

Do realize that some of these companies have importer in Europe. For example Taig has Peatool in England so if buying new you should be able to get the proper electrics. I would imagine that they have the rest of Europe covered in some manner.

British manufacturer Cowells, On the other hand, makes the extremely versatile Standard Press Milling Machine that is not only suitable for milling but may also be used for co-ordinate drilling and flycutting metal plates.

If we are talking about the same machine it is small, almost jewelers size. Frankly I'm not sure what your needs are but a larger machine might be advantageous.

The price is very high but I have lived in the UK for 6 years and I have friends there that can make a search for a second hand mill for me. The Voltage would not be a problem for UK network works at 240 Volts and so the British machines are robust enough to resist 220 Volts with an adaptor no trouble.

Well do avoid adapters at all costs, they are the wrong solution to the problem. On the other hand if you find something in Europe that is what you want but the wrong voltage don't get hung up on that. There are many solutions to the motor voltage problem.

As result of the information you have gave me I have been surfing the net and I have realized of the many possibilities machining may offer to spend very good times handcrafting all kind of metal goods. In my case I enjoy scratchbuilding scale trains for railway modelism and what the French call Bricolage but the options machinig offers seem endless.

I don't know what Bricolage is so that impacts the ability to help here a bit. In any event the size of the machine you would be best off with will vary depending on the scale of things. The Cowels might do for really small models while finding itself wanting for larger.

In the US there s a saying, often seen in machine shops, that they are a "Place you can build a dream". I think in essence this is the power of a machine tool in the home, that is the ability to build a dream.

A million thanks again Dave and all the members of this forum for having make me discover what will be my exciting new hobby.

I expect to be in touch with members of this forum to learn from them everything I need about machining.

Cheers.

Luis Mateos

Machining is a craft in many senses. Thus it takes time to learn the various aspects. Your best bet is to find as much as you can locally as far as books and magazines go. There are a number of magazines devoted to machining and modeling from the hobbiest point of view in the USA, I know England has a few also. A good mix of these goes a long ways and of course these days we have the net.

You also might want to look for a Model Engineering exhibition in Europe. These are a great place to see what true masters can do with metal. I'm far from a master but seeing some of the things accomplished is stunning.

Best of luck on your tooling search.

Dave

[Calvi]

Hi again Dave,

your help is invaluable. As you has told the price of goods in Europe is utterly otrageous. It is just fraud. I am a true fanatic of US made goods and many, many of the goods I own are made in the USA. everytime I have to buy something I check for US manufacturers and US based Internet online shops for even having to pay for the shipping to Europe, price in the USA for all kind of the US made best products in the World and USPS shipping prices are so cheap that is worthy to buy in the States.

It is a pity that I have followed the advice of your Countryfellowmen in expatriates in Europe forums without researching further or looking for the advice of someone a little bit more knowledgeable about the subject. I am an amateur airbrush graphic artist and I had to buy an air compresor a short time ago. Badger Thayer & Chandler is an American manufacturer of the best quality in the World and I found one in an American online shop for 195 US Dollars plus 30 US Dollars shipping but I was afraid it could not work well with our 220 Volts network so I finally had to pay 385 Euros for a German one. More than 420 Bucks!!! I wish I had known better. I did not know electric machines work in such a wide range of voltages in the USA. I think those electric machines made to work at 240 Volts will do. I brought to Spain many British electric appliances that are still working perfectly well in Spain with just a plug/socket adapter after 8 years .

The price for Services Sector in Europe is as otrageous as price of goods. I have to pay 84 Euros a month for a 4 Megas bandwith conecction to Internet to a French Cable ISP that follows an agresive Shaping policy and drastically reduces my bandwith on more dense traffic hours.

Now thanks to your knowledge and advice I know I can buy electric appliances and goods in the USA at the same extremely reasonable prices I buy the rest of the goods.

By the way, Spanish language is highly ifluenced by our French neightbours one and Bricolage is a French word that we have imported. It means doing all kind of house maintaining and improving works, masonry or plumbing, electricity and heating works and many others, for instance, and includes making furniture or fixing electric appliances on you own. Beg your pardon for not knowing the equivalent English word but that is just because though I lived in the UK for 6 years you never end learning English. Spanish has about 150.000 words, French about 300.000 words and English Merrian Webster Dictionary and Thesaurus contains 750.000 entries. Of course American Encyclopaedias contain the same number of entries.

I am going to look in the States for a second hand one of the trademarks machines you have told me. They are far cheaper than Cowells one.

About learning machining I have to tell you that is going to be difficult in Spain without going to a Polythecnical School but I am sure I can find very good books in English for amateurs. I love high-thech and those machines used for machining are awesome. I am sure I am finding soon a field of machining that suits my taste and allows me "playing" with them.

Cheers and thanks again.



Luis

[wizard]

Hi again Dave,

your help is invaluable. As you has told the price of goods in Europe is utterly otrageous. It is just fraud. I am a true fanatic of US made goods and many, many of the goods I own are made in the USA. everytime I have to buy something I check for US manufacturers and US based Internet online shops for even having to pay for the shipping to Europe, price in the USA for all kind of the US made best products in the World and USPS shipping prices are so cheap that is worthy to buy in the States.

Funny but many of those US products are now made in China. Still many good US based manufactures continue to produce very good machines.

I actually find it surprising that you can buy in the US and have something shipped to the EU and still save money.

It is a pity that I have followed the advice of your Countryfellowmen in expatriates in Europe forums without researching further or looking for the advice of someone a little bit more knowledgeable about the subject. I am an amateur airbrush graphic artist and I had to buy an air compresor a short time ago. Badger Thayer & Chandler is an American manufacturer of the best quality in the World and I found one in an American online shop for 195 US Dollars plus 30 US Dollars shipping but I was afraid it could not work well with our 220 Volts network so I finally had to pay 385 Euros for a German one.

This is very important but you do need to inquire first as to the items dual voltage capability. Many small air compressors are 120 VAC only. Larger ones would tend to be wired for 120/240 VAC. One thing that may be an issue is the frequency of operation. At 50Hz a motor looses efficiency and speed. Since induction motor speed is tied to the line frequency they run at this can be an issue. That is why it is a good idea to inquire with the manufacture about machines for 220VAC 50Hz.

In any event I want to make sure you understand that not all machines with 120 VAC motors are capable of running at 220 VAC. Beyond that the design speed of the machine might not be reached at 50 HZ.

More than 420 Bucks!!! I wish I had known better. I did not know electric machines work in such a wide range of voltages in the USA.

Almost all homes in the USA are wired 240 VAC with the secondary of the transformer supplying the home center tapped. The center tap is grounded and referred to as neutral. So from neutral to either of the transformers leads you get 120 VAC, across the transformer you get 240 VAC. It is not a range but rather two distinct voltages. All common outlets in a home are wired up to supply 120 VAC. 220 volt tools normally require the installation of a new breaker and a 220 VAC outlet.

I think those electric machines made to work at 240 Volts will do.

Most will with the caveats that the motor speeds will be slower. It would be best to get a motor rated 50/60HZ, it will still run slower but at least it is properly rated for that line.

I brought to Spain many British electric appliances that are still working perfectly well in Spain with just a plug/socket adapter after 8 years .

Well it won't be that easy with US made tools. If the motor supports 220 VAC operation you will likely have to rewire it for that. This is not as bad as it sounds, the connection diagrams are usually placed on the motors.

The price for Services Sector in Europe is as otrageous as price of goods. I have to pay 84 Euros a month for a 4 Megas bandwith conecction to Internet to a French Cable ISP that follows an agresive Shaping policy and drastically reduces my bandwith on more dense traffic hours.

I pay about $40 US a month for phone and dial up. I don't do high speed from home as it costs more. If I get a laptop soon I can get high speed for free at the local cafes. Frankly though I have more pressing needs to be addressed with my money.

Now thanks to your knowledge and advice I know I can buy electric appliances and goods in the USA at the same extremely reasonable prices I buy the rest of the goods.

That depends on what you mean by Appliances. I'm specifically responding to machine tools with motors. With appliances it is a crap shot. Many have universal power supplies but the lower cost goods are 120 VAC only. Appliances and goods should be advertised with the operating voltage and frequency expectations that they have.

By the way, Spanish language is highly ifluenced by our French neightbours one and Bricolage is a French word that we have imported. It means doing all kind of house maintaining and improving works, masonry or plumbing, electricity and heating works and many others, for instance, and includes making furniture or fixing electric appliances on you own. Beg your pardon for not knowing the equivalent English word but that is just because though I lived in the UK for 6 years you never end learning English.

A common term here would be a "Jack of all Trades" sometimes followed up with a "Master of None". Another term would be handyman.

Spanish has about 150.000 words, French about 300.000 words and English Merrian Webster Dictionary and Thesaurus contains 750.000 entries. Of course American Encyclopaedias contain the same number of entries.

I have an old dictionary from the 60's that has over 1664 pages of words. I'm not willing to count them all but that is a lot. Of course they do list every thing including what one might call abbreviation's. What we call English here is growing very fast though, I'm not sure anybody can keep up. Unlike the French we absorb from other cultures and are happy about it.

I am going to look in the States for a second hand one of the trademarks machines you have told me. They are far cheaper than Cowells one.

Funny I didn't even bother with finding out what Cowells pricing was. Importing European tools is hard to justify here and frankly never was a huge part of the hobby market. Then the Chinese came up with some interesting machines. So European tools have never been big here, at least on the hobby front.

About learning machining I have to tell you that is going to be difficult in Spain without going to a Polythecnical School but I am sure I can find very good books in English for amateurs. I love high-thech and those machines used for machining are awesome. I am sure I am finding soon a field of machining that suits my taste and allows me "playing" with them.

Cheers and thanks again.



Luis

Best of luck
Dave

[Calvi]

Hi again Dave,

It is true that nowadays most of the Companies in Europe and the USA make their products in China due to the low cost of labourhand, extremely harsh working conditions for workers,very long working days, non existence of disturbing trade unions, not paid hollydays, low taxation to Companies by Chinese State, etc. but the fact is that the design and thecnology are still American or European. You cannot buy a home computer that doesn´t have an Intel or AMD processor, that is a fact. The bad thing about it is that the Chinese are learning fast copying our design and technology, just like the Japanese did first and the so called "Asiatic Tigers": South Korea, Taiwan, etc. did later. Though it has the good side that we will have available soon in our countries cheap products made by Chinese Brands with Chinese technology of the best quality.

If you lived in Spain you would not be surprised by the fact that I buy many small to medium size items in the USA. Spain is one of European countries in wich imported goods prices are higher due to high taxation by a Socialist Government. As I have told you I had to pay 380 Euros for an Airbrushing air compressor made in Germany. The price difference with an American compressor of the best quality in the USA was so high as that for all kind of imaginable goods. Belive me, it is worthy to buy in the States and pay for the shipping unless the item is too bulky and heavy. USPS International Airmail Parcel Post shipping is very cheap if compared to British Royal Mail or Spanish National Mail.

I have upgraded my computer several times in the later years. Most of inner parts of it were purchased in the USA and assembled by a friend of mine that is a Computer Engineer. The motherboard is an Asus. The hard disks are Maxtor. The Graphic Card an Ati Radeon, etc. and when I upgraded the processor short time ago I bought an AMD Athlon 64 in the USA too. I know it is almost impossible to belive, but the price of American imported goods in Europe is similar to that of European ones due to European Union taxation to non European goods. The price for the same trademark and model American good in Europe is much, much higher than that in the USA and the problem is that the price for a similar quality European made good is not cheaper. If you do not belive me about it is worthy to buy in the States for the otrageous price of goods in Europe just take a look, using Google, at the price of cars in the UK and compare the price for the same models in the USA. it will give you and idea of the atrocious situation here. Of course I do not mean that I will buy my next car in the USA, but you will find out for example that the price for a Volskwagen Golf is much higher in the UK than in the USA. that is because European makers have to compete with the low prices of American makers in US market. And the price of a Chevrolet Nubira in Spain is about 16.800 Euros, 16% European Union V.A.T. -Value Additional Tax- not included.

Sorry to hear about the high price you pay for your phone service. I thought communications sector prices in the USA were much lower and the relative of a Cubanamerican friend of mine that lives in Miami told me in a Skype webcam videoconference that he had a 10 Megas connection to Internet, I do not remember how much he mentioned he was paying for it but it seemed to me a cheap price if compared to what I pay for mine.

Your comment on what the French call bricolage is very witty. Of course it takes long years to learn all those skills necessary to accomplish such different tasks and normally we go to polytechnical schools since we are young in our time off at High School to adquire the necessary knowledge and experience, and the word Bricolage comprehend them all but we normally specialize in that or those activitie/s we like the more. As you already know I do not know a dammed thing about electricity. I liked more furniture making, though indeed at an amateur level, not using the heavy machinery and in no way achiving the quality of industrial made furniture. If I am going to try to learn machining I will have to go to a Polytechnical sooner or later. The sooner the best. The problem is I have too many hobbies though I have quite much time off on a dayly basis.

Now with the latest explanations you have given me and the details provided I have a more clear idea on what I have to ask at online shops if I want to buy an electrically operated machine of any kind, what I wrongly called an electric appliance, and what I have to do to make it work properly here.

Thanks again and cheers Dave.

Luis