What machines are needed for profit?

[borrisl]

This is a very vague question:

Scenario – Love machine work, enjoy working with metal and seeing something come of nothing. However, no formal training and only about a year of tinkering. Would like to make a run at making a living doing this. Have the money to buy some commercial machinery (VMC, CNC Lathe).

1. If this were you, would you dive into the markets and purchase some high end machinery? If yes, what type and size?

2. If not, would you continue to tinker until your “hobby” machines make you some dough and then buy the larger machines?

3. Do the newer machines make it easier to make a profitable business, or are the used stuff still profitable?

I wish I lived ANYWHERE near a machine shop. I wouldn’t mind working for someone for awhile. In my situation, there isn’t much around, so it’s me, myself, and I. Nearest shop is about 2.5 hours away.

[rhino]

To make it profitable and before you but your machines, you must first fiind the work.

[wizard]

This is a very vague question:

Scenario – Love machine work, enjoy working with metal and seeing something come of nothing. However, no formal training and only about a year of tinkering. Would like to make a run at making a living doing this. Have the money to buy some commercial machinery (VMC, CNC Lathe).

It all depends on wha you want to target. Given that I do believe that a shop almost has to have a manual mill and lathe available. Not to be a primary money maker but as a component to keep the shop running and handling to one offs that can be very profitable.

1. If this were you, would you dive into the markets and purchase some high end machinery? If yes, what type and size?

That would depend on the markets I was after. I suppose you could purchase a vertical machining center and make a go at general machining. In fact it might be a requirement to have at least one general purpose machining center available. The bigger issue though is meeting customer demands and having the right equipment to do that with. Without customers it is very hard to invest in the right hardware.

2. If not, would you continue to tinker until your “hobby” machines make you some dough and then buy the larger machines?

It can be done as I've ersonally talke dot guys that started out with conversion machies and now have several HAAS machining centers. The condition here was that her had his own product serving a small market with only modest competition. If you can find the niche it is doable, but on the other hand the need for professional equipment can hit you very hard.

3. Do the newer machines make it easier to make a profitable business, or are the used stuff still profitable?

That question is impoosible to answer. In any event I will have to say that profits are something a business man generates not the machines.

I wish I lived ANYWHERE near a machine shop. I wouldn’t mind working for someone for awhile. In my situation, there isn’t much around, so it’s me, myself, and I. Nearest shop is about 2.5 hours away.

Frankly if you are this far from a machine shop I can't see how you would have any chance of being profitable given that you need customers. The only possiblity I see here is to develope and sell your own product.

Dave

[dertsap]

good machines are one thing , but good fixturing and quality tooling is what makes the difference . less setup time means the machine is making money ,setup time can be what kills a job , quality tooling means more money in a shorter period of time ,as you can generally run parts much faster ,

rhino is right about the work , without it ,you can have the best of it all , but it s useless if no chips are flying

[keebler303]

it would definatley be a good idea to work in a real shop before you try to open one. it would at least give you a taste of the business before you were waist deep in it. one issue i believe you will face is that if there were a large market for machined parts, there would be a shop closer by. I could be wrong on that but in any event i would think it would be better to learn the ins and outs of the business on someone elses dime.

my $.02
Matt

[Caprirs]

good machines are one thing , but good fixturing and quality tooling is what makes the difference . less setup time means the machine is making money ,setup time can be what kills a job , quality tooling means more money in a shorter period of time ,as you can generally run parts much faster ,

This is the truth. A local shop here (guy in his garage w/ 3 VMCs) just finished running 20,000 parts over the past five months for his customer. His customer has 15 VMCs but doesn't have anyone who knows the tricks to making the parts cost effectively. He did it in 2 setups while his customer tries to do it in 3-4 setups. He has very low scrap rates where the customer has such high scrap rates, it's cheaper for them to send the work out. That is strictly a problem with know-how, not equipment.

Most of my work comes from a company with 4 VMCs, 10 manual mills, 5 manual lathes, and 8 people working in the shop. I can do their parts on my VMC in my garage in 2 setups compared to the 4 setups they do.

Matching your knowledge with the machine capabilities is what makes you competitive and successful.

[UKRobotics]

The machines wont make you the money, a soild well thought out business plan will. Once you know what you want to do and how you are going to do it then you can get the right machines for the job.

I'm actually in a similar situation to you myself. I'm currently at uni studying IT. I have always been into engineering and have done so as a hobby for many years. Like you I'm not too sure exactly what I want to do yet, but I know CNC has to be involved somewhere.

My plan is to start my own business while I'm still at uni, so I have somthing to continue with once I leave. For me the degree is just a backup plan rather than a be all and end all. Because I'm so unsure of just what I want to do yet I'm not rushing into starting up a business just yet and keeping it at a hobby level.

I recently purchased a second hand bridgeport series II interact 4 and I'm now in the process of doing a full retrofit with new electronics and pc based controls. I know this is not the easiest route and there will be a steep learning curve but this is what I want. My theory is that by doing the retrofit I will learn so much about CNC machinging in the process that I will be in a better position at the end of it to decide just what path I wish to take.

I've managed to keep my costs at a level where the project will still be sustainable without making any money. i.e if my more ambitious plans fail then I will still be able to afford to keep it just for hobby use alone. On the other hand if I do start to go into production, this machine will be more than capable of doing so, at least in the initial stages.

It goes without saying that the better machine you have, the better work you will be able to do and the more money you can get paid for it. That said, this is the real world and not fantasy land. The 20 year old CNC turret mill you can afford is going to make you a lot more money than the VMC that you cant. If the demand for your product or service is there then you can always use the money you earn to buy somthing better. - You have to start somewhere.

While this isnt specifically engineering related, I highly reccomend that you read this book http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/088...lance&n=283155

I think you may find it very helpful

[NC Cams]

I bought some used machines and learned some valuable lessons trying to resurrect them to start my business on the cheap.

The cam girnder was "like new". If it was, then the builders were on drugs that day as the clearances were sloppy and the bearings defective. We redid them and it works fine now. Actually, it now seems that the machine was rode hard and put away wet. The "like new guarantee" was useless as the dealer/exclusive sales agent went bankrupt a year or so after we bought it. Consider some used machinery dealers as reputable as politicians or used car salesmen - refurbished often means a coat of paint over top of 10 years of neglect. Like putting Lipstick on a pig....

The Bridgeport was VERY nice when I got it. Some road rash but nice. Bought if rom a friendand paid top buck, too much actually. Did a bearing thrash and PC upgrade and it works fine.

The NC lathes were a nighmare. 2 had lighly used iron and the third was pulled from a demonstration shop as well as a production house - all three were identical models.

The production house guy was a butcher. The lathes ran at the old shop and haven't run a day in the 4 years since we moved them - his butchered wiring didn't survive a simple move done by professional machinery movers. To make matters worse, his hand made, radio shack part comprised BTR's fried the M/B's due to lame electronics execution.

Getting 1979 "like new" iron but old controls fixed is a nighmare. Had I bought more wisely, I could have bought new and had a 1 good running machine instead of 3 very sturdy iron horses with clunky/near dead controllers that are NOT easy to retrofit (see lathe retrofit thread elsewheres on this site)..

Don't event think of retofitting a lathe. If you do, be prepared to write your own code or spend BIG bucks (excluding MACH but Mach doesn't run with servos easily and some old machines wont' talk to/with XP).

Finally, there IS NO PLUG AN PLAY CNC RETROFITS. If you're starting a hobby that would turn into a business, buy whatever, get it to run and then start the business - DON"T QUIT YOUR DAY JOB UNTIL YOU GET THE STUFF RUNNING, and running RELIABLY.

If you are looking to roll in a machine and make parts, you might be REAL disappointed in hobby type CNC's. When you rely on M/B's and friends to solve problems, urgency is not a high priority and waiting for an e-mail reply can send you into a ballistic frenzy. When you have customers waiting, you call a service guy, get him to fix it and figure out how to pay later.

Sort of like when you wake up in the middle of the night with a cramp in your chest. You go to the ER of the local hospital - you don't search message boards nor do you shop for sales on Ebay. you simply go, get the cramp fixed and pay the bill when it comes.

First decide it this is a busines or a hobby and then run it appropriately. Hobbies can turn into businesses BUT you can't dink with a hobby while you try to run a business. This hobby or business decision should determine whether you'll tinker with machines or buy someting serious to make parts.

Forewarned is forearmed.

[Perp]

NC Cams, that sounds like some solid advice. I am thinking of getting a new CNC mill as I just hate dealing with everyone elses trashed equipment. this is my first venture into the machinig world (I am a flooring cotractor now) and as I have been lurking here for a few weeks you seem to pop up everywhere with good advice. So let me ask you this, Is it feasable to buy a BP clone and expect the same quality and precision or is this a case of getting what you pay for. I am leaning away from the import clones but i figure i would ask. Sorry about the Hijack, even though it does kinda flow with the original post a little.
Thanks
Doug

[ataxy]

couple of thing that i think i figured out so far as i am planning myself to go into business

1-be carefull no to go to big to fast
2-if you plan to buy used make sure you can see the machine and if possible see it working also if you have low knowledge on evaluating try to be at least two machinist to go and see it two heads are better then one
3-a 4th axis is wonderfull but it cost alot mostly on small cnc mill and when i say small i am not talking about a benchtop machine but more like those toolroom cnc at +-20000$ and you may get away without it at first
4-buy the strict amount of side equipment you need you can do without a 3" boring head at first or a 4 by 3 inspection granit or a full kit of mitutoyo or starett micrometer with some cheaper one or smaller granit or boring head
5-simillar to no1 try to make sure you know you can do the contract you take
6-be ready in most case unless your lucky to not make alot of profit in the first few year if none
7-starting your business is not a 9am to 5pm job but more of a 6am to 11pm most of the time if not all the time and almost all the time 6 days a week so if you have kid(s) and wife make sure there up to it
8-if you tought of something and i sure there is add it or if you have comment about what i have tought of so far let me know as i am basicly at the almost same point

if you are lucky enough to have like me a step father with a double garage that he does not need and is ready to let you take it help cuz shop rent is a huge part of the finance of a business

[andy55]

8-if you tought of something and i sure there is add it or if you have comment about what i have tought of so far let me know as i am basicly at the almost same point

Do you think you can start with only a mill at first ? From what I have heard the shops usually have more lathe jobs.
So that would double the startup costs to at least 40-50k if you're getting a toolroom mill and a toolroom lathe.

[NC Cams]

Memo to Perp: depends on who made the clone, who sells it and your options in buying due to cash on hand.

SOME mill clones are throw aways. Service parts may or may not fit or be available. I had good luck with some Grizzly stuff and can speak well for their parts service - I was surprised frankly when I needed some odd ball part for my 4003 lathe and they had it - wasn't exactly the same but it worked.

IF you can find a decent/nice Bridgeport mill or CNC at a good price, they can be a good retrofit candidate. Their Eztrak was, in actually a CNC retrofit onto a classic BPT mill and it is a real nice piece.

Ours has ground screws, SEM motors, and a PC based controller. It will run G code and we can do 3D milling with a 2.5 axis machine WITH REAL CAREFUL PLANNING and a bit of a tune-up.

Most DIY'ers can't/won't do it because of cost but in our case, we took a glorified drill press and have it working at Haas tool room mill accuracies - and for a fraction of the cost of the Haas. Sadly we can't do 3D simultaneous motion but we're investigating options around that currently.

EDIT Think about the resale potential. A Bridgeport anything will have SOME resale potential. IF you do a nice job of fixing it up and CNC retro-ing it, you could sell it much easier and perhaps for more than you paid for it. As my partner learned, you may just have to liquidate. Good stuff fetches more than junk and/or imported clones. Plan ahead for possible eventualities END EDIT

Don't think of retrofitting a lathe to CNC outside of a hobby. See my separate thread regarding the pratts and pittfalls thereof and I already have iron that only needs a new control.

In retrospect, I'd buy a new decent import lathe (the 4003 Grizzly does all that we need and it was only $2K or so). IF you want a CNC lathe, look for a 'name' machine that isn't hacked up. MAKE SURE IT RUNS and has FULL DOCUMENTATION. Finding documetation can become a nightmare. And, even class outfits like Fanuc don't support some older software - learned that with my 5T's.

Mill wise, a Bridgeport with a DX32 (PC based controller) is a darn good buy. Should have servos and the DX32 stuff is pretty nicely done. We're playing with that system now - if only we could get some custom code for the BPT o/s or .EXE's written, it would be AWESOME.

I hope this qualifies as sound info....