HAAS TL-1 vs Southwestern Industries TRL-1630SX

[TurboDiesel]

Hi everyone, this is my first post here!

I'm new to the CNC world, but I am in the market for a CNC/Manual lathe.
I'm a technical mechanical engineer with manual machine experience.

I think I've narrowed my field to:
HAAS Tool Room Lathe, model TL-1
http://www.haascnc.com/details_LATHE...LatheTreeModel
Southwestern Industries model TRL-1630SX
http://www.southwesternindustries.co..._lathes1.shtml

Their costs are about the same, 30K with all the options.

My requirements are:
Ones and twos, never more than 25.
Somewhat complex contours, tapers, radii and 1/4 ellipticals
Threads: AN, NPT, straight
8" OD max, 12" length max
ID and OD work

8" OD Aluminum
4" OD 300 series stainless steel
various carbon steel sizes

Here are some of the features for each:

HAAS TL-1
Massive frame, 4100 lbs net
Large footprint
Name brand
Clean G-code operation
Single phase power option
Mechanically linked hand wheels (good feedback)
Coolant splash complaints
Somewhat intimidating control panel

Southwestern Industries TRL 1630SX
Small footprint and weight, 2200 lbs net
Modern, powerful computer control system
Fly-by-wire hand wheels
3 Phase power only (need converter)

There are many others of course, but those come to mind.

I'm really stuck as to which machine would be best for me. They are very different in some ways, but not in many.

What are your thoughts and suggestions?

Thanks a bunch!
TurboDiesel

[Sparky_wrench]

As repair person, I have issues with the electronic handwheel, when new and backlash is almost non-existant comp is not an issue, but after wear sets in, it becomes very noticable when indicating in a job. sure you can comp it out with the parameters or service codes, as SWI calls them, but they are agrivating. Also SWI seems to have a quick turn over for knowledgeable techs/engineers. At least that is my experience. They try to black box all their info including at least half of the service codes, unless you get a knowledgeable tech guy, you are going to have to relate a lot of experience and ask the right questions to pull the answers. The stepper drives or servo drives are seemingly small and light duty, though no doubt sufficiant. They seem to be easy to use machines on the other hand.
I have not worked on any HAAS lathes, just mills. they seem to be of like quality with Fadal and Topping. Typical Pacific Rim mid grade. well documented and supported.
Sparky

[Geof]

Your need to work on 4" dia. 300 series stainless may tax the Haas TL1. The spindle motor is belt drive, no gearbox, and at low spindle speeds does not develop much torque. With stainless you need good low speed torque so you can take healthy cut and avoid work hardening the material.

The TL1 is very good but does have the limitation that it is not a brute force machine; but probably the other machine you are considering is not either. You should try to get a demo working on the materials and sizes you mention.

[TurboDiesel]

Sparky_wrench,
I didn't know that electronic handwheels could develop backlash, I thought this would only apply to mechanically linked handwheels. What is physically happening to the electronic switch in the handwheel to develop backlash and require a comp adjustment?

I visited the local Southwestern Industries (SWI) rep yesterday, and was given a demo for the ProtoTRAK SLX Controller box which is used on the SWI 1630SX lathe. It of course went good, though there was one instance where the simulated cutting of a thread ran the cutter into the chuck. He said it was a bug in the simulator model only and wouldn’t occur if the controller had been connected to a physical machine. He also admitted he hadn’t upgraded the software from version 1.0 to the latest version. Hummmm.

The controller is a Black Box and the rep told me that the user is locked out of most of the CNC functions going on in the background, including Windows XP. That doesn’t thrill me either, running a CNC lathe on top of Windows XP, or any version of Windows for that matter. This I see as an important difference, though running a full-blown computer operating system in the background does have its benefits, like support utilities, file converters, spreadsheet program editing, familiar Windows file structure and manipulation, external keyboard, mouse, and others.

Sparky_wrench, what kind of support have you needed from SWI? What problems have you encounter with these machines, any common ones? I will ask about the stepper/servo drives and the max force they can develop and compare that to the HAAS TL-1. Thanks.

Geof, that’s a good suggestion to test the actual material, especially loading the machine down hard. I have an ACRA 1340 TVS, http://www.acramachinery.com/Manual_...es/1300TVS.htm,
(electronically variable speed) manual lathe with a high (500-3000 rpm) and low (100-500 rpm) gearbox. It seems to have plenty of torque at the low end and I have had no issues there. I really like the ACRA. As for the new machines, neither company has the actual machine on the floor to demonstrate. I have seen the HAAS at a new customer’s shop, and the owner loved it. But I think most anyone who just bought a $30K lathe better love it or repeat “I love it” a few thousand times till they do! Thanks, Geof.

SWI really pushes their computer driven user interface, and the canned routines for user friendliness and versatility. When the SWI rep saw my HAAS Toolroom lathe brochure, he smiled and said let me tell you two things about the HAAS machine (I’m not a Machinist by trade, so bear with me on the terminology, description, and details below):

1) The HAAS digital readout (DRO) gives its location relative to the home location which is at both X and Z max from the chuck, at the tail end of the machine, and displays this somewhat useless value. I asked if the absolute home display value can be reset to wherever the operator sets it, and he said no. I need to verify this with the HAAS rep. I didn’t ask if the DRO had a relative or incremental mode which could be set to any location, and much more useful to the operator.

2) The HAAS user input and canned routines (not straight g-code input from a CAD/CAM program) do not allow the machine to cut both towards the centerline of the part and away, within the same cycle. He says this is because when the tool offsets are programmed at the beginning, only one side of the cutter tip is located and the HAAS controller doesn’t know where the back side of the cutter tip is. An example of this operation would be cutting an OD groove with a 45 degree ramp towards the centerline of the part, a flat, and then a 45 degree ramp away from the centerline of the part. He says the HAAS controller will choke on the 45 degree ramp away from the centerline because the controller doesn’t know where the backside of the cutter tip is. In this example, the front side of the cutter was located. If it had been setup to cut away from the centerline, fine, but then it wouldn’t know how to cut towards the centerline. This operation would require a true g-code routine from a CAD/CAM program, or manual g-code programming. The concept makes sense to me, but I need to confirm this. It would be a serious limitation to manual programming, but it may also be sales hype!

Sorry to write such a long post, but I find this fascinating and I enjoy understanding as much as I can.

Thank you.

[Sparky_wrench]

The Trax LX2 software is buggy, ver 1 and ver 3 - that was the whole problem with this trouble call. they did a backlash comp according to the book and it input about 10X more than what was needed. I upgraded the software as per instructions from SWI and the control lost its trig functions, but did better on the B/L although it was still too much. I called to talk to the software engineer that I had talked to a week earlier and was told he was no longer there. I changed back to the original ver. software and did a manual input of B/L and things were better. did both axis and the machine is dialed in real nice now, as long as no one deciedes to do the automatic B/L comp again. The issue with the B/L and electronic handwheel, is when you are in fine resolution each click moves the smallest increment (don't recall what it is right off the top of my head) but when the B/L comp comes into play it is induced at the coarse numbers so its possible to get an unexpected jump if you sneak up and touch off and go back to it. Kinda difficult to explain but easy to see when it happens. Also the Course and fine cannot be switched at will, it is only addressable in certain modes and the default is coarse, of course. I suppose all machines have their quirks, mechnically its ok, wear didn't show anything unexpected, base is a little light. I'm pretty sure it runs under DOS or a variant thereof. You'll never see MS influence though. Good Luck

[Sparky_wrench]

Sparky_wrench,<<<COMMENTS IN BRACKETS>>>>>
I didn't know that electronic handwheels could develop backlash, I thought this would only apply to mechanically linked handwheels. What is physically happening to the electronic switch in the handwheel to develop backlash and require a comp adjustment?
<<<<<all machines have backlash the control compensates for it by making automatic adjustments (adding pulses or subtracting pulses from the actual encoder counts when a direction is changed) Kind of like driving your car by wire or by mechanical pedal, you can feel the pressure on the gas pedal by wire, all you feel is a potentiometer.>>>>>


The controller is a Black Box and the rep told me that the user is locked out of most of the CNC functions going on in the background, <<<frustrating to me>>>>including Windows XP.<<<<<<<<XP?? not DOS???>>>> That doesn’t thrill me either, running a CNC lathe on top of Windows XP, or any version of Windows for that matter. This I see as an important difference, though running a full-blown computer operating system in the background does have its benefits, like support utilities, file converters, spreadsheet program editing, familiar Windows file structure and manipulation, external keyboard, mouse, and others.
<<<<<most of the controls have the basic file handling capabilities, they are not made to be a utility computer. and although with a Windows OS, it is still, by design more difficult to do stuff you would normally do on a shop PC. get a cheap laptop, you can use it for DNC and file manipulation in my opinion.>>>>>

Sparky_wrench, what kind of support have you needed from SWI?
<<<<<<Just service codes and procedures for running them, not well documented.>>>>>>


SWI really pushes their computer driven user interface, and the canned routines for user friendliness and versatility. When the SWI rep saw my HAAS Toolroom lathe brochure, he smiled and said let me tell you two things about the HAAS machine (I’m not a Machinist by trade, so bear with me on the terminology, description, and details below):

1) The HAAS digital readout (DRO) gives its location relative to the home location which is at both X and Z max from the chuck, at the tail end of the machine, and displays this somewhat useless value. I asked if the absolute home display value can be reset to wherever the operator sets it, and he said no. I need to verify this with the HAAS rep. I didn’t ask if the DRO had a relative or incremental mode which could be set to any location, and much more useful to the operator.
<<<<There has to be an absolute, or possibly a code to set it, FANUC has been doing this since the begining of time, homing sends the machine to a touch-off switch then sets a number predetermined from a parameter. Usless usually so it alows you to gointo absolute and set zero. If you think about it, your home sets at say 40 inches and you run the tool up to close to the headstock then you move the tail stock around and put in a 30 some inch of stock, you move the axis back and see exactly how much travel you will have until you run into the limit. just a quick ruler.Works fine>>>>


2) The HAAS user input and canned routines (not straight g-code input from a CAD/CAM program) do not allow the machine to cut both towards the centerline of the part and away, within the same cycle. He says this is because when the tool offsets are programmed at the beginning, only one side of the cutter tip is located and the HAAS controller doesn’t know where the back side of the cutter tip is. An example of this operation would be cutting an OD groove with a 45 degree ramp towards the centerline of the part, a flat, and then a 45 degree ramp away from the centerline of the part. He says the HAAS controller will choke on the 45 degree ramp away from the centerline because the controller doesn’t know where the backside of the cutter tip is. In this example, the front side of the cutter was located. If it had been setup to cut away from the centerline, fine, but then it wouldn’t know how to cut towards the centerline. This operation would require a true g-code routine from a CAD/CAM program, or manual g-code programming. <<<<<<<<Most companies that do serious part programming input from CAD/CAM. I'd bet there was a way to get around this, either by doing manual programming or an inverse, not a programmer, but it does sound like a serious limitation. Other MTB's charge extra for special canned cycles>>>>>>>
<<<<In addition....Ask about DNC will they supply a DNC program (no charge) and will they show you or set parameters for data transfer if and when you need it? so many customers find out that they would like to do it after the fact and have to make a service call or make software or hardware purchases .
Sparky
(not a machinist, just a push button operator and sometimes service technician)

[Geof]

Just some comments on what you have under 1, and 2.

1. The Haas controller shows four position displays (DRO):

One is the Machine display which always shows the location relative to machine zero (home).

Another shows the location relative to the G54 work coordinate setting and if this is set to zero on both axes this display is the same as the Machine display.

Yet another one is mostly used when single blocking the machine through a program and this is the Distance To Go. This is how far the machine still has to travel to complete the movement commanded in the current block. This is a very useful display when proving a program.

The fourth display is Operator and this one can be zeroed at any time and then shows how far you have moved from the point at which it was zeroed. This is essentially an incremental mode.

2, This long explanation of the limitations of the "on-machine" programming systems is why I did not even try to figure out how to use the Haas Intuitive Programming system or try to do any programming using their on screen help. All the systems intended to help a person program have limits. Once you reach these limits you have to go back and learn G code anyway if you want to go past them. It is much more efficient to learn G code right at the beginning. I do everything directly in G code either writing the program in a text editor on a PC or on the machine. I have numerous template programs for different operations that I simply change coordinates in for a particular part. The Vee shaped OD groove you describe, if you exclude a few roughing plunges to reduce the side cutting load, is three lines of program. The Haas has roughing and finishing G code routines that can be used for this type of thing and once you have written one for a particular width and depth it is a matter of editing a few coordinates for other sizes.

The Haas comes with a serial port for DNC and a floppy drive is an option. If you want to get carried away you can get a hard drive, USB and ethernet but this is a bit of overkill. I am always amused by the comments about needing CAD/CAM for serious part programming when you are dealing with a lathe. If you can describe your profile as a collection of straight lines or arcs you can program directly. It is only when you are faced with complex curves that CAM becomes essential.

As I mentioned in my other post the only question for your application is the simple brute force aspect of taking the size of cut at the feed you must use at the rpm you must use on stainless steel when using the TL1. See if Haas will provide a video of a machine doing want you need if you cannot see an actual machine.

[TurboDiesel]

Geof,

Thank you for the very good input. As to the DRO absolute reference being limited to the rearmost point of the machine, you are exactly correct, there are 4 DRO references, each available to the operator at will, point closed.

As to the backside of the cutter, the HAAS rep conceded that there are some limitations to the intuitive programming function, but if the controller is setup properly, this is not an issue. The HAAS factory outlet should have a Toolroom lathe on their display floor in 2-3 weeks and I will investigate this further. I have waited 49 years to by a CNC lathe; I can wait 3 weeks more!

Additional details: The HAAS machine has either three phase or single phase input power supply available on the machine. The Southwestern Industries machine does not and requires me to buy a 3 phase converter for my single phase location. Ouch!

The HAAS lathe has rails for the lathe bed ways, I am not familiar with this. Apparently these are standard for all HAAS lathes. Anyone: what is your opinion of rails in place of traditional lathe bed ways?

Thanks

[Marlin]

The primary reason for using linear guides is to improve accuracy. These work by having rolling balls carrying the load, and so have much tighter clearances than box ways. Haas uses these linear guides on all of their machines.

You are also right in that the machine will run off single phase power, in fact, you can unplug your electric clothes drier and run it at home, but your wife will probably slug you.

The spindle is driven by a toothed belt, these do not slip, and unless they are worn, they are as accurate as gears.

I would suggest that if you have any questions about how the machines run, you call up the Haas application department. There are about 12 full time guys sitting at their desks just waiting to help customers with applications. You can get the phone number off the Haas web site, it is www.haascnc.com.