Bought a CNC VMC Mill - Need some advice and info

[turbodreams3000]

Hi everyone. I've been a long time lurker but this is the first time I'm posting or registering here. I've been in search of a nice CNC vertical mill for about 3 years now. All the machines I kept finding in my price range were too small, and all the machines that were the size I wanted were always too expensive.

I finally found one that was affordable and large enough to do some of the parts that I want to do (mostly stainless and aluminum parts). I've been around CAD design and mechanical design for many years but I've never done any work with a CNC machine or even a mill. I've gotten my new machine moved into my shop and now I need to get everything needed to get started.

I bought a 1996 Lagumatic VMC with a Dynapath Delta 40 controller. It is in position finally after a lot of interesting maneuvering. This is one big heavy sucker!!

The things I know:
* I need BT40 holders (various ones I assume)
* I need some starter end mills and shell mills, etc.. to start with?
* I need some sort of fluids to run the machine (various ones? or a single fluid?)
* I need a vise (or maybe a couple?)
* I need clean air supply

Questions that I can think of right now that folks here may be able to help with:
* What type of fluid or fluids do I need to buy for the machine?
* What would you guys recommend for some tooling to start with and practice?
* Any good inexpensive vises that you'd recommend? Should I just look for something old and large?
* How clean does the air supply need to be? Can I use the air supply that we already have in our shop from the same compressor and lines that we use for our other tools? How dry does the air need to be?

Thanks in advance for any and all help you guys can provide. I can say that without cnczone over the years I would have been completely in the dark about what type of machine I even needed to look at for the type of parts I want to make.

[txcncman]

You need lube for the machine. Should be listed on the tags. What's that? You say the tags are missing? Ok. Lubes are listed in the manual. What's that? You bought a machine with no manual? Oh. Have you contacted the MTB? Most likely you will end up with Wayoil 68 anyway. No worries, right? You probably should spend $2500.00 on tool holders and cutting tools right away. Don't worry that what you might want to cut might call for specific tools. And don't worry that end mills that cut stainless best won't cut aluminum very well. Or that end mills that cut aluminum best won't cut stainless at all. Or will they? Be ready to spend another $2500.00 on cutting tools (and a few more holders) when you are done practicing and ready to actually make some parts. Did you buy Machinery's Handbook before you bought a machine and study it cover to cover? Not likely, huh. Who in their right mind would waste time and money on something so chocked full of knowledge and information? Still no worries. There is the trial and error method of learning. Maybe for "practice" (whatever that means), you should start with one 1/2" diameter carbide end mill and one 1/2" diameter HSS end mill. By all means, practice on wood and plastic, since they cut nothing like aluminum or stainless. Buy the cheapest vises you can find. That way you will get more exercise when you throw them through the wall in anger because they will not repeat location within 0.010". If it looks like a Kurt vise, it must work like a Kurt vise. Clean air? You took the filter off your compressor already, right? Little particles of dust and grit help smooth out the cylinder bore so it can run faster and use less electricity due to less friction. Assuming your other tools would prefer that you hook them straight to the garden hose. Do not bleed moisture out of the air system on daily use. Do not install traps at air outlets. Both are a waste of time and money. Everyone knows you need to keep more of your money for beer and sports entertainment. Pro ball players nationwide will thank you.

[turbodreams3000]

You need lube for the machine. Should be listed on the tags. What's that? You say the tags are missing? Ok. Lubes are listed in the manual. What's that? You bought a machine with no manual? Oh. Have you contacted the MTB? Most likely you will end up with Wayoil 68 anyway. No worries, right? You probably should spend $2500.00 on tool holders and cutting tools right away. Don't worry that what you might want to cut might call for specific tools. And don't worry that end mills that cut stainless best won't cut aluminum very well. Or that end mills that cut aluminum best won't cut stainless at all. Or will they? Be ready to spend another $2500.00 on cutting tools (and a few more holders) when you are done practicing and ready to actually make some parts. Did you buy Machinery's Handbook before you bought a machine and study it cover to cover? Not likely, huh. Who in their right mind would waste time and money on something so chocked full of knowledge and information? Still no worries. There is the trial and error method of learning. Maybe for "practice" (whatever that means), you should start with one 1/2" diameter carbide end mill and one 1/2" diameter HSS end mill. By all means, practice on wood and plastic, since they cut nothing like aluminum or stainless. Buy the cheapest vises you can find. That way you will get more exercise when you throw them through the wall in anger because they will not repeat location within 0.010". If it looks like a Kurt vise, it must work like a Kurt vise. Clean air? You took the filter off your compressor already, right? Little particles of dust and grit help smooth out the cylinder bore so it can run faster and use less electricity due to less friction. Assuming your other tools would prefer that you hook them straight to the garden hose. Do not bleed moisture out of the air system on daily use. Do not install traps at air outlets. Both are a waste of time and money. Everyone knows you need to keep more of your money for beer and sports entertainment. Pro ball players nationwide will thank you.

It has been a while since I've seen someone be so blatantly insulting without using any curse words. txcncman, looking at the two websites linked in your signature I would figure you as the helpful type and not such a douche. Guess maybe you had one too many of those beers you talked about before typing up that response

I have the manuals and docs for the machine. I have looked into the various types of tooling (sizes, flute style, coatings/materials, etc..) that I will need for the type of work I'll want the machine to be able to do. I have looked into the various cooling/lubricating fluids, and I have looked at several different types of vises. But I'm a complete beginner at using a mill and thought someone could make some suggestions of best practices as far as choosing these components or at least sort of point me in the right direction incase I'm way off base. I don't want to buy cheap junk that will not be good for more than a couple of uses, and I don't mind spending the extra money for tooling, vises, holders, fluids and parts that will last.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

turbo-' I think txcncman was being facetiously funny while still being informative. There is a lot of good advice there, just in reverse.LOL

Dick Z

[turbodreams3000]

turbo-' I think txcncman was being facetiously funny while still being informative. There is a lot of good advice there, just in reverse.LOL

Dick Z

Kind of like one of my grumpy old uncles before he passed several years ago. Not a very good attitude for an educator to have IMO. But to each their own.

So as far as the air supply goes, we have multiple air water separators in our shops air supply setup, but we sometimes do still get moisture in the lines on those very humid Texas days. Is there a way to avoid this or is that not something to worry about?

I've ordered up several different holders, end mills, etc this morning. I'm still trying to figure out what to go with on the fluids.

[txcncman]

You are correct. Bad attitude for an educator. Or, maybe it is not. Maybe by being hard on novices, we can weed out those that are not willing to do the work needed to be a quality machinist from those that play around at it and give the rest a bad reputation. You might want to refer to the USMC boot camp. In days of old (30+ years ago), an entry level machinist (called an apprentice) would be partnered with one or more journeyman machinist for approximately 4 or more years of on-the-job training before they themselves would be recognized as a journeyman. During this time, these novices would be teased and harassed and generally hazed to see if they could stand up to the demands of working as a machinist.

A water separator has limits on how much moisture it can remove. Check the specs. A water separator will never work as well as a drier/dehumidifier. Even a drier/dehumidifier will have limits. The more capacity for water removal, the more it will cost. Putting traps in at air use connection points offers a way to drain water that accumulates in the air lines periodically. Most shops do not even drain their air tanks daily.

For cooling and chip removal, you have several options: use nothing, use air blast, use cold air gun, use mist coolant, use flood coolant, use high pressure flood coolant. Since you have an open knee mill configuration, high pressure flood is not a good idea at all. Depending on exact machining conditions, any one of the others is a viable option. As far as exactly what coolant to use, there are several that work well as general coolants. Contact your local distributor for recommendations and price options. Most go with synthetics and semi-synthetics these days because they are more bio-stable. You will also have to determine if yourself or anyone in your shop has any allergies triggered by any specific coolant products. Some people develop rashes or skin conditions from some coolants, but not others. The same for respiratory problems from atomized coolant. Some can develop asthma-like symptoms.

Being a good, quality machinist is not cheap. I probably have $3000-$4000 of personal hand tools in my tool box, and I do not have enough. I usually add another $100-$500 of personal tools per year. That does not count consumables (cutting tools, coolant, sand paper, etc.)

Have I become the grumpy old guy? Yup. I went from a college education as a drafter (Engineering and Drafting Technology) to quality inspector to machinist to CNC programmer in about 3-1/2 years, because I applied myself and read every technical publication I could get my hands on and watched others and took literal notes and asked a lot of questions. And, after over 17 years in the machining and manufacturing industry, I have become weary of people coming into this industry and calling themselves machinist but could not machine their way out of a paper bag. I'll shut up now. Enjoy.

[A1CNC]

Based on the size of VMC you bought, I would guess you are either looking to do large parts or lots of parts.
If you are looking to do large parts a single vise probably won't do it.

If you are looking to do lots of parts you might need to make a custom fixture or use multiple or even double vises. Without seeing what your parts look like it's realy hard to suggest much.

Most people find a 6" quality vise is where they start. Kurt is a good quality vise.

I prefer Collet holder style endmill holders over Solid holders as you have a wider range of tools you can hold with it.

If your manuals don't list the type of Lubricants you may need to find either someone who has a similar machine or a dealer who handles the Lagunmatics.

I use Rustick WS5050 for flood-cooling.

[turbodreams3000]

You are correct. Bad attitude for an educator. Or, maybe it is not. Maybe by being hard on novices, we can weed out those that are not willing to do the work needed to be a quality machinist from those that play around at it and give the rest a bad reputation. You might want to refer to the USMC boot camp. In days of old (30+ years ago), an entry level machinist (called an apprentice) would be partnered with one or more journeyman machinist for approximately 4 or more years of on-the-job training before they themselves would be recognized as a journeyman. During this time, these novices would be teased and harassed and generally hazed to see if they could stand up to the demands of working as a machinist.

A water separator has limits on how much moisture it can remove. Check the specs. A water separator will never work as well as a drier/dehumidifier. Even a drier/dehumidifier will have limits. The more capacity for water removal, the more it will cost. Putting traps in at air use connection points offers a way to drain water that accumulates in the air lines periodically. Most shops do not even drain their air tanks daily.

For cooling and chip removal, you have several options: use nothing, use air blast, use cold air gun, use mist coolant, use flood coolant, use high pressure flood coolant. Since you have an open knee mill configuration, high pressure flood is not a good idea at all. Depending on exact machining conditions, any one of the others is a viable option. As far as exactly what coolant to use, there are several that work well as general coolants. Contact your local distributor for recommendations and price options. Most go with synthetics and semi-synthetics these days because they are more bio-stable. You will also have to determine if yourself or anyone in your shop has any allergies triggered by any specific coolant products. Some people develop rashes or skin conditions from some coolants, but not others. The same for respiratory problems from atomized coolant. Some can develop asthma-like symptoms.

Being a good, quality machinist is not cheap. I probably have $3000-$4000 of personal hand tools in my tool box, and I do not have enough. I usually add another $100-$500 of personal tools per year. That does not count consumables (cutting tools, coolant, sand paper, etc.)

Have I become the grumpy old guy? Yup. I went from a college education as a drafter (Engineering and Drafting Technology) to quality inspector to machinist to CNC programmer in about 3-1/2 years, because I applied myself and read every technical publication I could get my hands on and watched others and took literal notes and asked a lot of questions. And, after over 17 years in the machining and manufacturing industry, I have become weary of people coming into this industry and calling themselves machinist but could not machine their way out of a paper bag. I'll shut up now. Enjoy.

Thanks for the input. I think I sounded too harsh in my previous response. I picked up on the sarcasm and i guess my sarcasm in return came through a little too serious. I took your advice here and purchased a refrigerated compressed air dryer unit that should be here next week. I'll still run 1 separator at the dryer outlet and another before the CNC mill just to be on the safe side, and since I already have 2 here that aren't being used for anything else.

[turbodreams3000]

Based on the size of VMC you bought, I would guess you are either looking to do large parts or lots of parts.
If you are looking to do large parts a single vise probably won't do it.

If you are looking to do lots of parts you might need to make a custom fixture or use multiple or even double vises. Without seeing what your parts look like it's realy hard to suggest much.

Most people find a 6" quality vise is where they start. Kurt is a good quality vise.

I prefer Collet holder style endmill holders over Solid holders as you have a wider range of tools you can hold with it.

If your manuals don't list the type of Lubricants you may need to find either someone who has a similar machine or a dealer who handles the Lagunmatics.

I use Rustick WS5050 for flood-cooling.

We do custom automotive parts such as turbo kits, exhausts, intake manifolds, etc... The largest individual part we'll do is a head flange for an inline 6cyl engine and we'll do runs of smaller flanges as well from time to time. I like your suggestion on the Collet holders. I'm seeing a lot of different types available on the holders, I'm 110% for purchasing good quality bits that will last a good while. Should I stick to the same with the holders, or are most holders going to work just the same for us?

Still looking into vises and coolant. I see a lot of different coolants available and the salesman say that they'll be great for our machine, but it all sorta seems like marketing ploys to me for some reason.

[A1CNC]

Toolholders are the link between the spindle and the tool, You want good quality. If the Toolholder isn't balanced and if it doesn't run true your parts and your spindle will suffer.

A spindle bearing rebuild will start around $3000.00

I like Techniks toolholders. Good quality, decent price.
Techniks Toolholders for CNC Machines and CNC Routers – Magnetic Workholding, Lifting Magnets, ER Collets, CNC Tooling, Deburring Machines

[turbodreams3000]

Toolholders are the link between the spindle and the tool, You want good quality. If the Toolholder isn't balanced and if it doesn't run true your parts and your spindle will suffer.

A spindle bearing rebuild will start around $3000.00

I like Techniks toolholders. Good quality, decent price.
Techniks Toolholders for CNC Machines and CNC Routers – Magnetic Workholding, Lifting Magnets, ER Collets, CNC Tooling, Deburring Machines

Good point. Just took a look at the Techniks website you linked to. They have a nice selection and their prices are reasonable too. May give those guys a ring tomorrow.

[bglad]

Hi,
We have a machine like yours, I purchased many good used BT toolholders from EBAY, no problems, be sure you have good pull studs attached, not worn out.

Get a few basic endmills holders, and a few collet chucks, ER style, ER16 typically a good size range, and you will need need some collets of the sizes you will need to determine. Also, I been buying holders and collets from Shar's Tooling Co., nice quality, great prices. (I'm not a salesman)
You might want to call the factory tech guys, ask for Roger, see if he can tell you about the lubes/oils you will need. Be sure the geared head has oil.