Best machine for a kid to learn on?

[whendidigetold]

Hi, My son (15) wants to be an engineer and I'd like to get him a machine that he can learn on(me to). Would an old metal lathe give him the best "experience". I'd like him to get some hands on and think a lathe could be a good choice. But I'm not sure. With all this new CNC stuff, would it even be worth it?
Yep, I'm clueless.
Thanks,
Jeff

[UUU]

There's no substitute for hands on experience. And there's no substitute for a good teacher. If you can combine the two by finding some forum where he can learn from being with an experienced person...

Then it's a question of copying the approach of the experienced person. No point getting an old lathe if the experienced person uses a CNC mill.

Me - I started with an old lathe. But my friends had old lathes too, so I learned from them. One of them bought a CNC mill - and it was so much fun that I've now got one.

Then you need a project. What's he (you) interested in? RC cars? Little steam engine? PCBs for electronics?

Then perhaps it's a question of personality. Can you use something without knowing how it works? I can't. So I can't just learn how to use a machine by numbers. I have to feel, to know what's going on. And you'll certainly feel with an old lathe...

[whendidigetold]

Originally Posted by UUU There's no substitute for hands on experience. And there's no substitute for a good teacher. If you can combine the two by finding some forum where he can learn from being with an experienced person... Then it's a question of copying the approach of the experienced person. No point getting an old lathe if the experienced person uses a CNC mill. Me - I started with an old lathe. But my friends had old lathes too, so I learned from them. One of them bought a CNC mill - and it was so much fun that I've now got one. Then you need a project. What's he (you) interested in? RC cars? Little steam engine? PCBs for electronics? Then perhaps it's a question of personality. Can you use something without knowing how it works? I can't. So I can't just learn how to use a machine by numbers. I have to feel, to know what's going on. And you'll certainly feel with an old lathe...

Thanks, He really likes anything with wheels. His project for when he gets his liscence needs a couple of simple stepped dowels made to mate his engine and trans as well as possibly a few other bits. Figured that would be his/our first "project".
So did your experience on the old school lathe help you a lot on the cnc stuff?
I'm not familiar with this stuff at all.
Jeff

[UUU]

For me (I can only talk for me), I'm glad I built up a feel for machining using a manual tool before I went on to CNC. I can now sense when it's cutting right by a combination of the sound, the appearance of the chips and the feedback on the controls. With CNC you don't get the feedback - but the other two are a good guide. You can look up feeds and speeds in a book, but there are plenty of posts on this forum where users have found they don't get the result they want using the book values.

You'd be amazed - you put a piece of metal in the machine and cut it to size (supposedly). But it doesn't fit. It's gone banana-shaped. Metal can be like wood - it has grain, it warps.

For me (again, I can only talk for me) I'm hopeless with my hands, but I'm very happy with numbers and computers. So the hard part for me was to learn the manual bit and the easy part was the CNC conversion. Now if you're already good with your hands, but hopeless with numericals, you might be better off doing things differently.

If you wan't to really do it by hand - a friend who was a Royal Navy apprentice - take a big lump of metal, a hammer and a chisel - make a cube, a perfect cube.

[jsheerin]

I'm an engineer. What lead me to that was a drive to design and create things. For example, a hobby shop opened across the street from me when I was about 13. I was into building scale models because my dad and I started doing that together (cars, planes, etc.), so I checked it out. They had a big section of radio controlled airplanes that fascinated me. At that point I was beyond what my dad had ever done, but after I saved up some money from mowing yards and bought a kit, he always encouraged me and helped me out - he was my pit crew. My dad had basic power tools, and I mostly learned to use them on my own. When I got into the airplanes, I started buying some of my own tools though. Eventually all the hands on experience building and designing things did help me out in becoming an engineer, but it's not strictly required. I know a lot of engineers who'd just end up poking themselves in the eye if you gave them a screwdriver to use, but they can do brilliant stuff with complex mathematics and come up with great designs that other people can build. The ideal is a combination of both imo, as someone who has experience building what they're designing can come up with better ways to make the part easier to produce.

So my advice is to find a project first - something your kid wants to make. Then go from there. If that means you need a lathe, great, but I didn't get any exposure to machining until I was interning at a company with a machine shop when I was in college and it didn't really hold me up at all.

[DMF_TomB]

in my opinion the best learning machines are made by Sherline
The Sherline Lathe, Milling Machine and Precision Miniature Machining Page
.....you can start with manual machines and upgrade to CNC. in my opinion these small machines can do a lot. yes you are not going to do big jobs but they work better than most machines for the small stuff.
.....plus made in the USA and you can buy accessories easily. in fact the many accessories for the Sherline equipment puts it in a better position than trying do get stuff for a WW2 war surplus specials.

[whendidigetold]

Thanks a lot everyone
This is all pretty new to me so I really appreciate the responses. Your answers cleared up some questions.
I just wish the OLD lathes were cheaper.


Thanks,
Jeff

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

The older manual machines are more robust than the new tinker toys, hence they retain value.

We're modifying a CNC lathe right now that cost us all of $800. An older manual lathe in good condition and of the same capacity would cost $5,000~$10,000.

Even with all the benefits of a CNC and video games, you still need the "feel" of metal cutting/machining.

Dick Z

[DMF_TomB]

i had seen some old manuals with their purchase orders in todays prices
Small USA made lathe $10,000
Medium USA made lathe $20,000
Medium Bridgeport size mill $15,000 to $25,000
.
even a rotary indexing head with 3 jaw chuck $1000+
.
yes there was light duty equipment sold by Sears and back in the day in may have listed for $500 which in todays prices is $5000 - $10000. remember in the 1920's i believe when Ford started paying $5 / day that was considered good.
......i have seen old lathes and mills for under $1000 and over 50 years old or very rusted and in bad condition. Some of these cheaper machines need repairs, like new bearings, shear pins, clutches, seal, gears etc.
......only thing i ever saw that was reasonably priced is when somebody sells there garage lathe because they bought a bigger one and old smaller one works and can be turned on to try out.

[handlewanker]

Hi, my first "lathe" was a Wolf 1/4" drill that I clamped to the kitchen table to make a special screw for a pair of scaling dividers, I was 18 at the time and had just started my apprenticeship as a fitter and turner.

My first real lathe, actual lathe, was a Flexispeed model, 1-1/2" centre height, (3" swing), powered by a 1/4 hp electric motor, and I paid 5 pounds for it, about 1/4 weeks wages for a skilled fitter and turner back in the late 50's.

This little lathe had 3 speeds, with a round belt drive to the head stock which slipped if you so much as put a cut on deeper than .010" deep.

The spindle was 1/2" dimeter and ran directly in the headstock metal casting, which being cast iron was considered OK for a bearing.

The bad part about it was it cut .002" taper over 1" length, and made any turning and drilling a nightmare....the headstock casting must have been bored out of line to the bed when it was made....a very cheap model makers lathe, very popular and sold well in the 50's in UK and elsewhere.

I made a lot of "progress" using that lathe by learning how to sharpen cutting tools from High Speed and Silver Steel...the learning curve was not all that steep as I haunted the metal working shop at school from age 14 and never looked back.

A lathe is like a high powered weapon, in inexperienced hands can be lethal, so get someone to be standing by and give you first hand knowledge when you switch on, otherwise you might forget the chuck key was supposed to be removed before switching on...LOL.
Ian.