Newbie- Help me with some nice lathe tooling :)

[Ed from NY]

Hi everyone,

I think this might be my first post on this section of the site

So... I'm getting a lathe now

I have decided on the Grizzly G0709. It is a 14 X 40. Grizzly sells it as a "Gunsmith's Gearhead Lathe." It got some reasonable comments over the net. At some point in the future I might convert it to CNC, though an unknown amount of part swapping may need to take place. But that is probably a year away (famous last words).

On the lathe itself, I'll be pulling the trigger tomorrow night.

In the past I got my feet wet with CNC milling, but this is my first "lathing" experience. I'll be more careful with the lathe, so no crash videos on youtube this time

So yes... the tooling...

I like tools. One of my prized ones is an Albrecht chuck (R8). For what I do, home shop, I could manage with a generic import, but there is a certain pride and pleasure in owning and using tools of that quality. I do the roughing on my milling with US made Hanita clones. I like having a few higher end SGS end mills, etc, etc. Generally I do not buy "imports" tooling, though there have been exceptions.

With that in mind I'm looking to spend about $200-$300 on new tooling and inserts to welcome my baby.

It comes with a 200 series quick change tool post and a 1/2" MT#3 drill chuck. I already have (long story) a generic 7 piece set of indexable tools in 3/4" (product code 404-1054 from Shars). The 200 series post only takes up to 5/8", but I'll be getting a pair of extra tool holders and mill them down so that the 3/4" will fit. The tech support guy at Grizzly said that there is enough material in the holder for that. That is the extent of my tooling at this point. I do not have extra inserts or anything else. Well I do have a generic set of 3/4" boring bars, but these would not last very long if I really start to use them.

I stopped by carbidedepot.com (where I get most of my end mills) and noticed that brand name holders start at about $50-60 and inserts at around $10. Did not check eBay, but I presume that if I knew what I wanted I might be able to get some stuff from there too. However, since I'm a total newbie I'm not even sure what shapes of holders/inserts would be likely to see the most use.

• I know I probably would like a nice parting tool, but I'm not even sure if I should be going for a indexable tool for that, or sticking with plain HSS.
  
  
• I probably would like a couple of "special occasion" tools/inserts that would give me the best finish I can get with the machine...
  
  
• I do not know how much threading I'll be doing. Of the projects I have in mind threading does not play a big part. But threading is cool too.
  
  
• I suppose a couple of smaller holders (1/2" ?) to get where the 3/4" can not.
  
  
• I would also be turning some hot rolled, so I'm not sure what is the best strategy to handle the scaling as far as tooling goes.
  
  
• I'm not big on grinding my own tools. I would rather use inserts unless we are talking very simple grinding.
  
  
• I'm not sure if it is worth to spend on brand name inserts for that 3/4" set.

So as you can see I'm a little bit lost. Yet I would like to welcome my lathe with a few nice tooling pieces.

Ideas? Suggestions?

BTW, I'll be turning mostly mild steel, some aluminum, and on occasion plastics and an odd piece of copper or two.

Thanks!

[Ed from NY]

Well, I placed the order for the lathe yesterday. But no additional tooling except for some HSS parting tools. I'll see what I'll do about the rest of the tooling later. Thanks.

[mc_n_g]

I would recommend you get a set of toolholders which take the same insert, if possible. This will save a little money. Some sets also have a boring bar or two as part of a set. At least on I am thinking about is Micro 100. I know there has been a guy on ebay over the past few months selling individual holders and sets.
You can go with either a positive or negative insert style with the 14" lathe, if you have a larger HP motor. If not I would stick with the positive types inserts (my personal preference but maybe not others).
I would look at a C, D or T insert shape toolholder. Each type has different benefits. They can all reach into corners and still be used for facing. The W type inserts can also be very nice as they almost have an inherent wiping action to longitudinal cuts.
You will not be able to buy one insert for cutting all metal types so expect to pay money for different types of metal cutting inserts.
Another thing about insert is you may not be able to take full advantage of carbide and the differnt coatings because of your lathe speeds.
I would read many of the information on carbidedepot.com reference section in depth and then read it again to understand some of the geometry and nomenclature of inserts. Carbide by itself will not enable you to lathe better. Buying dirt cheap inserts can sometimes cost you more in the end. Errors with carbide will cost you more than HSS.
I would not go smaller than a 2 size radius for your lathe. I recommend that only because the insert tips will be stronger. The down side is you will not be able to get sharp inner corners. The larger radius may help (depending upon how you cut with it) with the surface finish.
I would strongly recommend you learn to grind your tools. In some cases HSS may provide a better finish if used properly. Carbide is generally for production throughput. If you do not have to run part after part you may not see the benefit of carbide plus you do not have the higher speeds of CNC spindles.
You can use either an inserted part off tool or HSS blade. Both can be finicky. The insert tool holder will be tend to be more expensive. No matter which way you go I would not go anything less than 3/32. Smaller than that can flex and break. I would learn the ins and outs of HSS but it is your choice.
I would say you will easily reach $300 for tooling. Buy more quick change tool holders!

[Ed from NY]

Thanks a lot for the tips MC.

The main reason for carbide is so that I do not have to learn another skill -- have enough to keep extra busy without having to worry about grinding tools. So even if it is more expensive and offers no substantial benefits it is one less thing I have to worry about

It has been taking me a few days to digest what you said and to do some research as well. It seems that tooling for lathes a bit more complicated than what I expected.

So far I'm leaning towards WNxG to get my feet wet.

With the "W" it seems that with just two holders (one left and one right) I could pretty much cut in any direction. So they would be really cool if I convert the machine to CNC later.

With the "C" I'm not quite sure the 110* corner would be that useful and I would need 4 holders to use all 4 corners. I'm not sure I understand the "T" because it has the same number of usable corners as a "W" but it is sharper at 60*... so wouldn't that leaver a worse finish? Why are the "T"s so popular? Same with the "D"?

I picked the xNxx as I read that the negative holder can also be used with positive inserts (but not the other way around). BTW, my motor is only 2HP. I hope I can do negatives.

Then the xxxG would give me the double-sided use.

For the shank I'm leaning towards 3/4". Even if I need to upgrade the tool changer later I think it is better to do that than to buy a bunch of new holders and end up with multiple sizes. Not that it plays in the decision, but in a pinch, that also allows me to use the 3/4 cheapish set I already have.

For holding I'm thinking one of those pin and clamp systems.

On the brand I'm leaning towards Kennametal because I find their literature and catalogs easier to understand. I simply can't figure out Iscar's.

On the gauge 432 seems to offer more choices of inserts.

On the different grades, I still have to research *sigh*

So this is what I'm thinking about at this point...

Inserts:
Categories

Holders:
Product Detail
Product Detail

So yeah... a couple of holders and a few inserts and that is that.

EDIT:

After considering the grade I think I'm going with WMNG432MS which is uncoated. That way I can use it with ferrous and non ferrous. If they go by too fast, and I'm happy with the holders and insert shape then I could get another pair of holders to use with WMNG432RP which has one of those AlTiN-kind coatings that are good for steel. Weird that Kennametal would not offer a WMNG in a TiB2 coating or similar. (may be that is not the thing for lathes ?)

EDIT 2:

Yeap, even at 2000 RPM a 1" diameter only gets you to 500 sfm, but OTOH I have been running my mill at 400 sfm or less with carbide tools and, well, it works. Problem will be running it manually till the conversion.

.

[Ed from NY]

Oh boy! The kennametal insert selection tool is getting me toltally different results. I guess it will take a couple of iterations

[mc_n_g]

The tip radius has more to do with finish. The insert shape has to deal more with the inherent strength of the tip and insert. If the step over rate is larger than your tip radius you will get visible grooves in your part (like threads).
I do not understand your quote "I picked the xNxx as I read that the negative holder can also be used with positive inserts (but not the other way around)." I have never heard that plus the geometry is not right. You can get a positive type cutting geometry in the negative insert. These special geometry inserts are normally ground and only used for nonferrous work, namely aluminum.
It is the negative insert portion which gives you both sides of the insert. The last letter in the designation identifies the chipbreaker style and whether it is pressed on one side or two and the hole style.
The MS in the insert identifies a specific chipbreaker style not the grade of insert. Chipbreaker styles will not be in all grades. Chipbreakers can range from finishing, roughing and general cuts and specialized to certain metals.

If you are only worried about using all four corners on D and C inserts perhaps you should not get into carbide. My only hope is that you do not complain about carbide inserts after you invest money into them and do not see the results you are expecting.

[Ed from NY]

Thanks for the clarifications MC

Don't worry, grinding tools does not appeal to me. Not what I signed up for. I would rather get a bigger machine than having to grind my own tools. Which is something I'm considering since my g0709 is back ordered till December 17th. However, the next machine up which is single phase is double the price for 3HP and Meehanite casting. That would be the G9730. That is a big difference in price though.

I'll work on the inserts again between tonight and tomorrow night.

[Ed from NY]

I was thinking about some of this stuff on my way home and it is so much new information that is very easy to loose perspective. It turns out that the number of usable corners is not that relevant if you are only making a couple of hundred pieces a year.

On the rake, it seems that you would want positive rake for non-ferrous and negative for interrupted cuts and steel, particularly if there is scaling.

---

Let's see if i can work this thing out...

Given the low fpm I have...

Negative inserts for roughing steel -- style "MN", grade "KC9040" -- 300-700 sfm
KennaPerfect Selection System :: Inserts for Steel

Negative inserts for finishing steel -- style "FN", grade "KC9125" -- 450-900 sfm, but supposed to start at 600 sfm
KennaPerfect Selection System :: Inserts for Steel

Add a geometry: Trigons WNMG-MN and WNMG-FN

Now add the holder style: KENLOC

In the turning catalog we only find WNMG-FN in KENLOC

432 for a good size insert and relatively smooth radius ->WNMG432FN KC9125

Found it at carbide depot, a bit on the expensive side at $10.47 a pop in sets of 10
Product Detail

---

Going back and trying to find a KENLOC -MN in 80* rhombic => CNMG-MN

Yes, page A10 of the turning catalog!

432 for a good size insert and relatively smooth radius ->CNMG432MN KC9040

But... no KC9040 at carbide depot. Could order elsewhere, find something slightly different in KC9040 or go for KC9125 which carbide depot carries, but is NOT for interrupted cut.


I think I got the mechanics (pardon the pun) and a bit of the nomenclature of insert selection... now if I only knew what I wanted :lol:

---

One problem is that for non-ferrous the sfm are ridiculously high.

Negative inserts for roughing non-ferrous KC5410 800-5000, supposed to start at 1800 sfm
KennaPerfect Selection System :: Inserts for Non-Ferrous Materials

Negative inserts for finishing non-ferrous KD100 1600-8000, supposed to start at 2500 sfm
KennaPerfect Selection System :: Inserts for Non-Ferrous Materials

Did not find lower sfm that did not have an Al based coating... may be I'll look a bit further or call Kennametal when I'm set on the geometries.

---

The extra quick change holders arrived...

REALITY CHECK!

They are small!!! The 200 series look like toys when compared with a 400 series holder *sigh* -- could still mill them down to hold 3/4" holders, but clearly a 5/8" shank would not be the weakest link in this set up.

The advantage of the 3/4" holders is that (1) they would probably survive an upgrade to a bigger machine in a few years, and (2) there is a choice of holders taking a 432, negative rake, and a pin & clamp locking mechanism.

Did not research much more, but 5/8" seems to limit your choices a bit more. At carbide depot where I found a variety of 5/8" was in the screwdown section for positive rake.

---

Selecting end mills was so much easier

[PixMan]

May I ask why you are focusing on getting a new Grizzly, and why only single phase?

There's a lot of good used 3-phase lathes here in the northeast, and it's only abut $350 for a good VFC to convert single-phase power to 3. Where in NY are you? I might be able to help you find a very good machine and I know I can help with tool selection.

I believe you're good to get WNMG style inserts and a holder for regular turning and facing. The holder would be something like an MWLNR 12-3. You'd be wasting money to get an MWLNL, because rare is the day you'd need to do "back turning" and never is the day you'd need back facing. You'd be better-off with a pair of MVJNR/MVJNL holders to take 35º profiling inserts to use for finishing and back turning.

Those are just examples of tooling I might recommend. EVERYTHING depends upon what machine you get, what kind of toolpost it has and what kind of work you want to do with it.

Geez, you were posting just as I wrote.

You probably don't need such big inserts. An WNMG33x size insert would suit the smaller lathes just fine.

Don't waste too much time trying to nail down grades. You will RARELY approach those speeds shown for the Kennametal inserts with an open bed toolroom lathe. The 25-30-35 range of carbide will serve you well despite no interuppted cut, because the tougher (vs. wear resistant) grades of carbide are better-suited to the low speed application of toolroom lathe work. Kennametal is far from the only good source, btw.

What size lathe are you getting? This is what determines what size quick-change toolpost is best for your machine. A 12-15 inch swing should be using a CXA/300 size QCTP that can take up to 3/4" shanks. A 10-12" machine is better with a BXA/200 size for 5/8" tools. A 9" or smaller machine uses an AXA/100 size for 1/2" tools. If you buy a tool post system that's too big for the machine, you might not be able to lower the tools enough to get them on-center. Don't start buying tooling until you have the machine in place and ready to go!

[Ed from NY]

Originally Posted by PixMan May I ask why you are focusing on getting a new Grizzly, and why only single phase? There's a lot of good used 3-phase lathes here in the northeast, and it's only abut $350 for a good VFC to convert single-phase power to 3. Where in NY are you? I might be able to help you find a very good machine and I know I can help with tool selection. I believe you're good to get WNMG style inserts and a holder for regular turning and facing. The holder would be something like an MWLNR 12-3. You'd be wasting money to get an MWLNL, because rare is the day you'd need to do "back turning" and never is the day you'd need back facing. You'd be better-off with a pair of MVJNR/MVJNL holders to take 35º profiling inserts to use for finishing and back turning. Those are just examples of tooling I might recommend. EVERYTHING depends upon what machine you get, what kind of toolpost it has and what kind of work you want to do with it.

Thanks for the tips on the tooling! I need a few minutes to digest it. It is kinda overwhelming

I'm actually in northern NJ. I moved a few years ago.

The single phase is because I would otherwise need a phase converter. For a 5HP machine a 20HP converter sets me down a good $2K G7979 Rotary Phase Converter - 20 HP

The new Grizzly is because I want to get up and running in a few days. The good oldies generally need a lot of work. As far as imports go the middle to higher end of the Grizzly line tends to be okay.

Yeah... the quick change tool post that comes in this lathe is a bit lacking, being a series 200 and all. But then the machine is only 2HP and 1500 lbs. I mean that is probably the price point. Yes I would like a 5HP 2500 lbs machine, who wouldn't, but can't justify it right now cuz after you are all done you are going down for $13-15K and it is still a manual machine. With the one I selected I'll probably be at $5-7K depending on the tooling.

But please let me know what you have in mind...

[Ed from NY]

Originally Posted by PixMan Geez, you were posting just as I wrote.

You too :lol:

Originally Posted by PixMan You probably don't need such big inserts. An WNMG33x size insert would suit the smaller lathes just fine.

I picked the insert because I wanted to get 3/4" shanks. If I remember it right, most of the inserts I found were 432 and 332. So I just picked the 4 because it would give you a stronger insert. I could not see a big change in forces otherwise because we are only cutting with the tip. That is what i picked a 4 IC

Originally Posted by PixMan Don't waste too much time trying to nail down grades. You will RARELY approach those speeds shown for the Kennametal inserts with an open bed toolroom lathe. The 25-30-35 range of carbide will serve you well despite no interuppted cut, because the tougher (vs. wear resistant) grades of carbide are better-suited to the low speed application of toolroom lathe work. Kennametal is far from the only good source, btw.

What is the "25-30-35 range" ?

Yeah, I picked Kennametal because I managed to understand their catalogs/conventions, and they are easy to find. One vendor is very confusing already ... but no, I'm not married to it.

Originally Posted by PixMan What size lathe are you getting? This is what determines what size quick-change toolpost is best for your machine. A 12-15 inch swing should be using a CXA/300 size QCTP that can take up to 3/4" shanks. A 10-12" machine is better with a BXA/200 size for 5/8" tools. A 9" or smaller machine uses an AXA/100 size for 1/2" tools. If you buy a tool post system that's too big for the machine, you might not be able to lower the tools enough to get them on-center.

It is a light 14x40 (1500 lbs) 2HP, cast iron. It already comes with BXA/200 and a live center. When I asked to upgrade to a 300 they said the only way to do that is to buy it separately. So I figure I would get an couple of extra 200 holders and mill 1/8 out to fit the 3/4" till the day i decide to get a 300 system... which would not have to be Grizzly BTW.

Originally Posted by PixMan Don't start buying tooling until you have the machine in place and ready to go!

Yeah... the tooling is a challenge.

Technically I already bought the machine... that is the order is placed and the only reason why it is not in my basement is because it is back ordered till mid December for some reason. I presume I could cancel it as it has not shipped yet, but I think it is a pretty good choice at that price range.

[PixMan]

I don't think you've spent enough time considering machines and are getting ahead of yourself with tooling. This Victor 1640 lathe, a 2500 lb 16x40 5HP, 3-phase lathe, is in my dad's shop for under $2000 with the DRO, Dorian CA QCTP, 10" chuck and 15HP phase converter.



We made the phase converter for $350 for the American Rotary Power "box" a free 15HP motor that was kicking around when the company dad was working for got free motor upgrades to their AC system from the power company.

You do NOT need a 20HP RPC for a 5 HP motor. Double the driven motor HP is more than enough. We went with 15HP because it was free. The deals are out there. You can also get by with a variable frequency drive. No RPC required and you get variable speed for your lathe. They run from about $350 to $700 depending upon quality and rating.

I've added maybe $5000 worth of tooling and no parts to that lathe since the first month...for about $2000. When we got it, I spent $371 for a new cross slide screw & nut and a manual. The rest has been smart ebay and craigslist buys.

As for inserts, you'll not have enough HP to bury a 332, so a 432 is just more money spent. What I mean by the 25-30-35 range is the last two digits of most modern insert nomenclature for grade. The numbers lower (10, 15, 20) tend to be the harder, more wear-resistant grades. The higher numbers represent tougher, more chipping-resistant grades that run at slightly slower speeds because they may wear more quickly.

BTW, a friend of mine is using WNMG331 & 332 inserts in his Okuma LB15 CNC lathe, with 1" toolholders. Even with 20HP on tap, he's yet to break one of those "weak" inserts.