Newbie- Submerged part in water or fluid for router cutting

[pinjas]

Hello,

I put this thought in someone elses thread, but I thought I should make another thread about it.

I am working out making a CNC table, I have the intention of using both a router and a plasma cutter on the same table, so naturally I would have a water bed on the table.

I've read several times that people use coolant in various forms. Mist, spray, drip, whatever. I've been wondering about using a submerged approach. I imagine submerging a part in order to mill or router cut a piece is very likely to accomplish several things at once. Obviously, it would keep the bit and the area around where it is cutting very cool, I also imagine the sound to be dampened a lot. After that, there is the benefit of not having hot metal shavings flying all over the place, no metal dust in the air, and a general simplicity involved in the whole operation.

I haven't imagined a whole lot of down sides to this idea, but I have no experience in the matter so I probably have no idea what I am talking about. I have imagined that it could be possible there might be a slight amount of added drag to the spinning. Obviously, you'd need much more fluid (I don't really know if just water is even an option) for this process to work. Personally, I'd much rather use plain water or anything that didn't have any kind of oil. Most things I cut would be welded shortly after drying and cleaning off all that oil doesn't sound like a lot of fun.

Is all this viable? Or am I off on this thought? Is this idea perceivably worse than the mist/drip/spray options that are commonly used?

At least for my application, I generally make things from stock sheet aluminum.

Any input is welcome and appreciated, thank you.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Have you considered the amount of spray, splash and mist you will create? Or the problems with electrics/electricity all that water will create?

Dick Z

[pinjas]

"Have you considered the amount of spray, splash and mist you will create?"
I have, would it be any more if using any other method of cooling?

"Or the problems with electrics/electricity all that water will create?"
I don't think I understand what you mean. The same logic applies for the first portion, wouldn't the theory of the fluids/water be a possible problem for any sort of application that uses it? Obviously, you don't want a spindle/router physically dipping into the water, if you are imagining a problem with controlling the level of the fluid, I don't think it would be a problem at all. You can easily siphon out any fluid that is excessive to where you want it to be. There are other ways to adjust the level of any water table, bladder systems, cupping the water out, whatever. I guess I can't imagine a submerged setup to give you any more problems than a drip system.

I think I mentioned this already, but I hope to be more specific in the definition. As something spins or moves, anything not firmly attached to it will fly off, logically water would fly off of a rapidly spinning object. If the bit that was spinning was constantly submerged, where would the fluid and metal shavings spin off to? In the worst case scenario, I imagine the fluid flicking onto the surface of the water around it. I really can't imagine anything with electricity involved becoming accidentally engulfed in water. There isn't any sort of pump system involved in this setup, I don't think there would be much reason for the fluids to go too far, I am sure that this is true with drip systems as well.

Please feel free to correct me.

[plasmator]

I like that you are thinking, so don't take my comments that follow as pessimism... Just looking at it from a problem solving perspective.


One issue I see is that there actually will be quite a bit of drag induced by being fully submerged. Water is tricky like that. Maybe you can still overcome it, but make no mistake - some of that spindle energy will be spent on moving water around.

The other issue I see is just the enormous mess factor... Ever take the lid off of a blender?

That all said, give it a try! Report back with your findings...

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

Ref: post #2 above.

The enclosures around machinery with coolant systems aren't there only to contain chips. With the spindle speeds of routers and high speed milling you will create considerable mist and spray.

Moisture will find it's way into motors, conduit, controls etc.

From your original statement, "Submerged parts" I Assumed you meant under water. If you lower the water level, they won't be submerged.

I hope I'm not misunderstanding your idea.

[pinjas]

Hah, I like your metaphor.

I think the difference here will be the direction the blender is facing. This is more like a hand held blender. There is a shallow bowl and the blending portion is dipping in to mix the contents.
I definitly agree that there will be some drag on the bit, but I doubt it could really be comparable to the force needed to cut through something like aluminum or wood. To help illustrate this thought, imagine the viscosity (thickness) of water. It is recorded as '1'. The word viscosity means, resistance to flow. So, 1 is a very low viscosity, I don't know if you can measure the viscosity of a solid, I suppose there can be a comparison to hardness here. If water is 1, wood would be like a million (I am just throwing a number out there). Aluminum would be even more viscous. The point I am trying to make is, I certainly agree that water will create some drag on the bit as it spins, I am very certain that it would take a fraction of a percent of a single horse power router/spindle. In other words, it is likely extremely negligible according to this thought experiment.

The space that the CNC I am going to make is going to be in is not really heated (unfinished garage). So I am going to need to work with a fluid that I can use that won't freeze. I imagine adding some anti-freeze of some kind to the water during the colder months around here, I guess my main concern is, is just water enough for coolant? Do people use just water for cooling while routing or milling? Perhaps I could add some sort of water soluble oil to the mix? All I know is I don't want to use pure oil for the process, I have no idea how people tolerate that kind of mess.
I have cut plenty of Aluminum, what I have been using is plain old bees wax for the cuts, it seems to work fine, I've never had a dull blade and the cuts are clean, no nasty residue or horrible smell. I wonder if I could use a combination of water and bees wax. Once in a while touch the bit with a little bees wax, and just use the water/fluid idea as well.

@RICHARD ZASTROW
"The enclosures around machinery with coolant systems aren't there only to contain chips. With the spindle speeds of routers and high speed milling you will create considerable mist and spray."
If you spray water on a bicycle tire, the centrifugal force will expel the water outward, around it. If the bicycle tire is in water, and spins, the centrifugal force will only twirl the water about.

"Moisture will find it's way into motors, conduit, controls etc."
How exactly will the fluids get to places? What do you mean by moisture?

"From your original statement, "Submerged parts" I Assumed you meant under water. If you lower the water level, they won't be submerged."
If you have a glass of water and you drop a marble into the glass, the water level rises, this is because of the volume of the marble is now occupying the space of where the water once was. If you don't want the water level that 'high', you need to suck out some of the water from the glass in order to get the water level to where you want it to be.
If the router/spindle is going to go to a specific 'depth', and water is where this depth is going to be, you will need and want to lower the water level or else water will get inside of your router/spindle. I hope I am making this clean and easy to understand. I think that ideally, the bit attached to the spindle would always be submerged a little while in motion and certainly always while cutting.

This seems like a fair example of what things may look like, except I would never use that sort of bit. YouTube - How to drill acrylic round hole with mill drill * Rundloch-Fräsbohrer You may want to skip to two minutes in the video.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

You probably noticed that in the video there was a splash guard. When the cutter was engaging the work space, it sprayed out from the relatively slow moving hole saw.

At router cutting depth you could have some sort of guard on the router to contain the spray. At router rotating speeds, there would be considerably more spray than at drill press speeds.

What I meant by moisture is water vaporized by high speeds of router tools getting into electrical components. Think of the typical grind shop. Very common to see water and condensed coolant/oil dripping from machines and motors, even on guarded machines.

Dick Z

[pinjas]

Originally Posted by RICHARD ZASTROW You probably noticed that in the video there was a splash guard. When the cutter was engaging the work space, it sprayed out from the relatively slow moving hole saw. At router cutting depth you could have some sort of guard on the router to contain the spray. At router rotating speeds, there would be considerably more spray than at drill press speeds. What I meant by moisture is water vaporized by high speeds of router tools getting into electrical components. Think of the typical grind shop. Very common to see water and condensed coolant/oil dripping from machines and motors, even on guarded machines. Dick Z

There is a large flaw in your observation, his drill bit is very large, mine would be very small. Just like any other water table, there is to be at least a upper lip around the table, at least a level of walling.

Regardless of that, I am not sure what you are trying to imply or point out, that I should do all milling and routing on dry metal? Maybe you know of a solution to these 'problems' you so eagerly wish to point out.

The video was a fair example of the ideas involved, it wasn't an exact re-enactment. A small bit that is pretty much only spinning when in the fluid won't make much of a splash. I don't see how condensation has anything to do with any of this. Coolant isn't going to condense, maybe you chose the wrong wording. Did you mean splashed? Because I doubt it's going to be a big deal, if it is, I am sure I could place a few quick guards in place and be done with it, a little metal and a few tack welds would be more than enough.
If I actually used a bicycle tired, and continually spun the tired up to a high RPM while dipping the entire tire in and out of the fluid, I might have a mess, I doubt it would be a destructive mess like you seem to assume, but it would be messy no less. However, this is entirely not the case, besides, even if I were to use a massive bit with a lot of excess surface area along with dipping in and out of the fluid, I doubt I would have much trouble, that guy did it and his machine seemed pretty dry afterward.

[RICHARD ZASTROW]

You obviously haven't been in many grind shops. The vapor and spray problems were the reason for using air blast and micro-drop systems on small high speed metal and wood cutting tools.

You seem determined, so proceed and enjoy!!!! Hope you prove me wrong.LOL

Dick Z

[WallyL7]

Put on your rain slicker and go for it!!!

Actually, the tool needs to be lubricated so just water isn't a good choice. Also, chip extraction is critical, and stagnant water won't pull chips away from the cutter like an air/oil blast or a blast of cutting fluid. I imagine the cutter will cause a crazy vortex around it, but I don't see it able to keep chips from being cut again and again...and you definitely don't want that. Also, cleaning out the tank of chips and fluid will be a fun task - and one that you will need to do often.

Just my initial thoughts on it...Still, I say "GO FOR IT" and post the video!!!

[pinjas]

I am just going along with this mind experiment as it seems natural. But what I think the problem between our thoughts are is that you are comparing one fairly different idea to another. I am trying to say, apples to apples.
Submerged versus a spray system are very different dynamics.

@WallyL7 Thanks for the vote of confidence.

I've imagined adding a sort of gravity filter system. I've seen water filters that are supposed to remove heavy minerals from the water simply by letting the water flow spend a bit of time with excess volume of water beneath it. This sounds very likely to work great for this sort of application, there is no need for a super fine filter, just something that will collect the excess chips. I have thought of this at some length, but I haven't entirely decided on what the best course of action would be for this. A hole around the center of the water table with a somewhat strong pump sucking the fluid would probably do the trick in conjunction with said filter. It doesn't actually have any filters, I could probably make something like this on your own pretty easily using a large aluminum box and a couple of inlet outlet ports. I am sure that cleaning out the gravity filter would be super easy as well if setup correctly. I imagine that aluminum chips may float, http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...num_chips.html I did a quick search and found that there is a solution.

I guess you have extensive experience in milling or routing of metals. If not just water, than what? I saw a thread that mentioned water soluble coolant, I know little to nothing of the thought. I probably won't use just pure water, as I mentioned, I will have to worry about the fluid freezing, already it's below freezing at night around here.

[The Blight]

Just water? Corrosion? Rust?

The biggest problem with this, is that you wont be getting rid of chips. There is nothing moving those away, and the most important factor of any coolant system is to get rid of chips. Get the water circulating for it to be effective.

I'm going to take my proxxon now, and put a router bit in water and see what happens.