The SHIZ, a newbie in over his head thread.

[Crusty1007]

I picked up this Shizouka ST-N.
Its dirty as can be seen. Im hoping a thread will motivate me to get this thing up & running, but im going to need some help.

So here it goes:

How it sits.

















You probably thought to yourself- That looks like a problem.
If so, This might be a cause for concern:







The theory is to update it to a PC driven CNC.
It seems totally possible from what I read on the web.

So far from all the threads I've flipped through, sites I've hit there is a core group of people that are balls deep in these things.
Needless to say I hope they chime in when i get into the thick of things.

As far as I can tell so far, It is setup with stepper motors & the original Bandit NC control. Im not sure how to tell the series though. (I, II, III ?)

A couple links Ive found that i've flipped through:
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=53570
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...t=21588&page=4
http://www.barryfish.com/
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showth...t=53570&page=4
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.buildyouridea.com/cnc/Shizuoka/Shizuoka.html

Speed control: (i'll post closer pics of mine)
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=82578

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Crusty1007 The theory is to update it to a PC driven CNC. It seems totally possible from what I read on the web.

Very possible, fairly easy to do. From what I can see, there is only one obvious problem, that chewed up or broken splined shaft. What is it?

So far from all the threads I've flipped through, sites I've hit there is a core group of people that are balls deep in these things. Needless to say I hope they chime in when i get into the thick of things.

Yep, lots of people here, and several just a bit further along than you are, which is quite helpful.

I like that fact that the machine is quite dirty. That means that the lube pump is probably working, which is a good thing. An oily mill is a happy mill. That looks like an automatic tool changer. Nice to have, if you need it.

Before you dig too deep, you need to clean the machine up a bunch (I use solvent, and 409 (but not together), and a couple of rolls of paper towels. Make sure you get the dirty paper towels out of the house or shop every night. Now it gets X rated. Take the skirts off the old gal and inspect her ways. Don't be embarrassed. Hopefully they are in good shape. If not, others can possibly help you, but not I. (No knowledge)

The fact that it says NC instead of CNC leads me to believe (I'm no expert) that this is an old machine. That computer may work, but keeping them working can cost a fortune. Keeping a PC working is cheap and easy.

When you start to strip the electronics out of it, start by tracing down the wires from the steppers or servos, disconnect them rather than cut them, and mark them, and preserve any existing markings. Same with all the wires from the switch panel on the head, the limit switches, etc. Start by buying a package of wire labels, maybe $20 at your local electrical supply house. Assuming you're going to run it off single phase power, using a VFD, almost everything else can come out, but save the 24 volt transformer, if there is one, as you'll probably need one later to drive all the relays and such. Save all the small 24 volt relays. They'll be used later to drive all sorts of things, like the lube pump, coolant pumps and valves, etc. You might even just keep these all connected for the time being.

Looks like there is/are one or more DIN rails with terminal strips and circuit breakers and fuses. Keep at least one or two rows of terminal strips. Use one for 110 or 220 volts, and one for 24 volts. Makes it easier later to figure out what voltage is which just by looking.

Suspect you're going to want to yank out all the old "computer" boards. If the machine is new enough, there might possibly be a market for them on fleaBay or Craigslist. Who knows. I advertised mine, then took them to the dump.

Have no idea how your lube system works. On the Bridgeport (and many of these import machines are just blatant copies) there is a piston pump (the Bijur, which you have). You can lift the piston up by hand and a spring pulls it back down. There is also a clockwork motor which turns an internal cam in the pump, which lifts the piston to the top of its travel, then drops it, and the spring pulls it back down. Then there are lube metering units, which are spring loaded one way valves with an internal orifice. Each of these results in a measured amount of oil flowing to each oil dispensing point. You need to insure that each of these dispensing points is, in fact, dispensing oil. If not, you'll soon have dry metal sliding on dry metal.

On my machine, the clockwork is set to raise the plunger in about 30 seconds. Get the part number off the cover to which everything else on the pump mounts, and you can look up the timer speed in a Bijur book. There are several copies floating around.

You're gonna have fun. I envy you that auto tool changer.

Well, I've answered a lot more questions than you asked, so I should shut up and let the more experienced heads have a chance. You can watch my progress at http://tomwade.me/tw/machinist/nm/

But do remember that not everyone is glued to the computer waiting to answer questions. Don't be discouraged if it takes several days to get the right answer.

Tom

[Crusty1007]

Tom,

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom That looks like an automatic tool changer. Nice to have, if you need it.

It is! I was hoping to reuse it, but Im not to concerned with it currently.

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom Take the skirts off the old gal and inspect her ways. Don't be embarrassed. Hopefully they are in good shape. If not, others can possibly help you, but not I. (No knowledge)

She is a Dirty girl! I have no idea how to inspect the ways or what Im looking for. In the areas that never saw use, it does have some surface rust.

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom The fact that it says NC instead of CNC leads me to believe (I'm no expert) that this is an old machine. That computer may work, but keeping them working can cost a fortune. Keeping a PC working is cheap and easy. When you start to strip the electronics out of it, start by tracing down the wires from the steppers or servos, disconnect them rather than cut them, and mark them, and preserve any existing markings. Same with all the wires from the switch panel on the head, the limit switches, etc. Start by buying a package of wire labels, maybe $20 at your local electrical supply house. Assuming you're going to run it off single phase power, using a VFD, almost everything else can come out, but save the 24 volt transformer, if there is one, as you'll probably need one later to drive all the relays and such. Save all the small 24 volt relays. They'll be used later to drive all sorts of things, like the lube pump, coolant pumps and valves, etc. You might even just keep these all connected for the time being. Looks like there is/are one or more DIN rails with terminal strips and circuit breakers and fuses. Keep at least one or two rows of terminal strips. Use one for 110 or 220 volts, and one for 24 volts. Makes it easier later to figure out what voltage is which just by looking. Suspect you're going to want to yank out all the old "computer" boards. If the machine is new enough, there might possibly be a market for them on fleaBay or Craigslist. Who knows. I advertised mine, then took them to the dump.

When I recieved it, the computer was already somewhat torn down. I photo'd & figured out what goes where that was still connected. I hate cutting wires.
I plan to try to not rewire the whole system. or I should say, re-do as little as possible. Right now the only thing I removed was the stepper connections & a couple of power wires that led to the NC portion of the mill. I will try to re-use what I can, I'll pass the rest of the stuff on.
Im not sure what to do with the power. It is currently setup for 220V (I believe). I also have 3 phase on the panel 3 feet behind it. So I dont believe Ill have a problem with any of the setup. I guess it becomes personal preference? How are the guys in the know wiring these things?

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom Have no idea how your lube system works. On the Bridgeport (and many of these import machines are just blatant copies) there is a piston pump (the Bijur, which you have). You can lift the piston up by hand and a spring pulls it back down. There is also a clockwork motor which turns an internal cam in the pump, which lifts the piston to the top of its travel, then drops it, and the spring pulls it back down. Then there are lube metering units, which are spring loaded one way valves with an internal orifice. Each of these results in a measured amount of oil flowing to each oil dispensing point. You need to insure that each of these dispensing points is, in fact, dispensing oil. If not, you'll soon have dry metal sliding on dry metal. On my machine, the clockwork is set to raise the plunger in about 30 seconds. Get the part number off the cover to which everything else on the pump mounts, and you can look up the timer speed in a Bijur book. There are several copies floating around.

I've been pulling that thing since I got it. Im hoping in the last couple months it has been pushing oil out & making my job easier when it comes time to get into the thick of it.

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom You're gonna have fun. I envy you that auto tool changer. Well, I've answered a lot more questions than you asked, so I should shut up and let the more experienced heads have a chance. You can watch my progress at http://tomwade.me/tw/machinist/nm/ But do remember that not everyone is glued to the computer waiting to answer questions. Don't be discouraged if it takes several days to get the right answer. Tom

Thanks for the good info Tom. Ill take a look @ your site & look your creation!

Ill spend some time this weekend cleaning it up. The "computer/NC" is ready to come off the side.
I could probably spend 2 days cleaning this thing.

[universalfab]

That's a old machine it's early 70's machine and controller. Good machines have a few of them 1 is a bigger one then that one of yours it was setup with a bandit1 or 2 with a toolchanger, servos, and 4th axis rotary. Pulled the controller off and replaced it with a newer cnc controller. The others are that exact size with steppers and retrofitted with newer cnc controllers. They are older machines I don't even know if they make these things any more. You might find some individuals around the U.S.A. that have parts for your bandit controller, we have 1 that we pulled off and it works, but it's missing 1 light and a couple buttons. If your interested let me know.

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Crusty1007 Tom, It is! I was hoping to reuse it, but Im not to concerned with it currently. She is a Dirty girl! I have no idea how to inspect the ways or what Im looking for. In the areas that never saw use, it does have some surface rust.

An oily mill is a happy mill. Look at the surface of the ways. Rub your hand over them. They should feel as smooth as a baby's bottom, or smoother. You should see what kinda looks like leaves in the surface. This is where an ace has taken a chisel and cut a very shallow gouge in the surface to trap oil.

You should not feel any major rust, deep gouges, etc. If you find anything like this, take pictures and post them. I'm not qualified to tell you what can or should be fixed, but there are many here who are qualified. But this is a high priority, as it will determine whether you should continue the march, or take the machine to a repair shop to be reground, or sold, or taken to the scrap yard.

However, most scrap yards will not accept automatic tool changers, so you'll have to ship that to me for disposal.

When I recieved it, the computer was already somewhat torn down. I photo'd & figured out what goes where that was still connected. I hate cutting wires. I plan to try to not rewire the whole system. or I should say, re-do as little as possible. Right now the only thing I removed was the stepper connections & a couple of power wires that led to the NC portion of the mill. I will try to re-use what I can, I'll pass the rest of the stuff on. Im not sure what to do with the power. It is currently setup for 220V (I believe). I also have 3 phase on the panel 3 feet behind it. So I dont believe Ill have a problem with any of the setup. I guess it becomes personal preference? How are the guys in the know wiring these things?

You probably need a separate panel with a disconnect to power just the mill. Might want to find a local industrial electrician to help with that. Nice that you've got 3 phase available. So many of us don't.

I've been pulling that thing since I got it. Im hoping in the last couple months it has been pushing oil out & making my job easier when it comes time to get into the thick of it.

An oily mill is a happy mill.

Ill spend some time this weekend cleaning it up. The "computer/NC" is ready to come off the side.

I wouldn't take the "NC" sign off. That's history there. Preserve it. (The sign, that is....)

Tom

[Al_The_Man]

A couple of things you want to do is to remove the Bijur pump and clean it out thoroughly, the way lube oil congeals after many years of use, the next is to flush the lines out and replace ALL the metering devices on the end of the lube lines, trust me, they will be blocked if they have never been changed.
The cabinet looks in nice shape and no apparent 'birds nests' due to quick mods etc.
For the tool changer, if it is in nice shape mechanically, a small PLC can act as a stand alone controller that can accept commands from the CNC and take the load off I/O demands.
Al.

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man A couple of things you want to do is to remove the Bijur pump and clean it out thoroughly, the way lube oil congeals after many years of use, the next is to flush the lines out... Al.

Al,

What would you use to flush out the lines?

After cleaning out the Bijur, can one just put a pint of solvent in the tank and pump it through the lines?

Thanks

Tom

[Al_The_Man]

Not sure if there is a preferred product to flush with, maybe Gunk or similar, I use kerosene and let soak for at least overnight, then remove the meters and blow out the lines with compressed air.
Or for the cost of the copper, just replace the lines.
Al.

[Crusty1007]

Originally Posted by universalfab That's a old machine it's early 70's machine and controller. Good machines have a few of them 1 is a bigger one then that one of yours it was setup with a bandit1 or 2 with a toolchanger, servos, and 4th axis rotary. Pulled the controller off and replaced it with a newer cnc controller. The others are that exact size with steppers and retrofitted with newer cnc controllers. They are older machines I don't even know if they make these things any more. You might find some individuals around the U.S.A. that have parts for your bandit controller, we have 1 that we pulled off and it works, but it's missing 1 light and a couple buttons. If your interested let me know.

The tag on the step driver says late 1980, So I assume it was in use by 1981.
I'm going to ditch the Bandit, It was half gone before I got to it.
Thanks for the offer on the Bandit parts!

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom An oily mill is a happy mill. Look at the surface of the ways. Rub your hand over them. They should feel as smooth as a baby's bottom, or smoother. You should see what kinda looks like leaves in the surface. This is where an ace has taken a chisel and cut a very shallow gouge in the surface to trap oil. You should not feel any major rust, deep gouges, etc. If you find anything like this, take pictures and post them. I'm not qualified to tell you what can or should be fixed, but there are many here who are qualified. But this is a high priority, as it will determine whether you should continue the march, or take the machine to a repair shop to be reground, or sold, or taken to the scrap yard.

I need to clean them up something serious. Do you have any recommendations? Fine steel wool, Grey Scotch brite pad?

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom However, most scrap yards will not accept automatic tool changers, so you'll have to ship that to me for disposal.

I bet you will!
If I decide to ditch it, you have first dibs. It looks to be mechanically sound & shows no sign of wear, just dirty.

Originally Posted by TarHeelTom You probably need a separate panel with a disconnect to power just the mill. Might want to find a local industrial electrician to help with that. Nice that you've got 3 phase available. So many of us don't. I wouldn't take the "NC" sign off. That's history there. Preserve it. (The sign, that is....) Tom

So it looks originally like it had 220V powering the whole thing in the main panel. It then splits off from there. Im going to have to take a closer look.
I would assume it would be more efficient to run the motor 440V like its capable of doing?
Im going to keep all the tags on it!

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man A couple of things you want to do is to remove the Bijur pump and clean it out thoroughly, the way lube oil congeals after many years of use, the next is to flush the lines out and replace ALL the metering devices on the end of the lube lines, trust me, they will be blocked if they have never been changed. The cabinet looks in nice shape and no apparent 'birds nests' due to quick mods etc. For the tool changer, if it is in nice shape mechanically, a small PLC can act as a stand alone controller that can accept commands from the CNC and take the load off I/O demands. Al.

Al,
Thanks for that info. I was wondering how I was going to tie-it into the network. I didn't think of the PLC.

Do you have any recommendations on "Way Oil"?
I'm not sure if the stuff in there is congealed. I would assume it is, I don't think this mill has been run for 10 years. Just stored in the garage.
It also has a few soft lines in the obvious locations. Is there someplace I can pick these up? Maybe a standard braided brake line will accomplish the same thing?

Thean

[Al_The_Man]

I use Vactra 2, http://www.mobil.com/India-English/L...a_numbered.pdf
For the lines, try any pneumatic supplier, if non-metalic.
Often very small gauge copper is also used.
Al.

[GaryCorlew]

There is a guy on the emc list that has the same exact mill, he is or has converted it to emc, I am not sure where he is in the process but he also may be of some help to you
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/Shizuoka/

[TarHeelTom]

Originally Posted by Crusty1007 Do you have any recommendations on "Way Oil"? I'm not sure if the stuff in there is congealed. I would assume it is, I don't think this mill has been run for 10 years. Just stored in the garage. It also has a few soft lines in the obvious locations. Is there someplace I can pick these up? Maybe a standard braided brake line will accomplish the same thing? Thean

Here are several places that have all of the lube parts available.

http://www.icai-online.com/ Bridgeport parts

http://gromax-usa.com/supplies/lubri...lubricator.htm

http://www.machinerypartsdepot.com

Tom