Really a 40w laser?

[pontiacg5]

I'm not disagreeing at all, I'm just saying these guys need to know going in that corners are cut everywhere they can possibly be cut to get this price point. You want something bottom dollar that's what happens. It's still (probably anyway, my bigger FSL is perfect for the price paid.) a good laser, FSL just likes to push the envelope in advertising it.

I understand the used gas market quite well. I've had plenty of opportunities to play with big lasers, mostly big water cooled Argons and whitelights. I've owned plenty of small air cooled lasers too. Argons, a krypton I never got running, a few HeNe's and HeCds in there too. My photobucket is packed completely full of these old show lasers, and my basement would be too if I could get the water and three phase cheap enough.

You can compare good Coherents, uniphases, spectras etc to china crap all day long but in my opinion it's apples to oranges. What does just the regas service cost on a 100W RF tube? I'd bet it's around 3 grand or so right? Can you expect to compare a $600 brand new 100W glass tube to that?

I guess what I'm trying to say is don't expect a cheap laser to perform like the industry standard, you'll just be frustrated to no end. It's not right that they over advertise they're stuff, but these guys spending $4k on a laser and expecting it to run like a $40k ULS are just silly.

Everyone knows you have to pay to play.

[keebler303]

pontiac

I think we're both driving the same wagon here. Just trying to inform society for the common good. You or they or any other pronoun is not directed at anyone specifically, other than FSL. My point is mainly pointing out the "truth-stretching" going on here. I won't argue that the Chinese machines are or aren't dirt cheap. You can have a dirt cheap machine with a 30W laser and you are fine. Just don't call it a 40W laser if it a 30W laser. And don't use jargon like "industry standard" if its not true. Which industry are you getting the standard from? The American industry standard is as I have described in my earlier post.

Matt

[Laser Engraver]

You would be lucky if your tube put out 35W. More like 27W, which is what I have personally measured on several new tubes. Same one as yours and trust me, FSL knows how much power these lasers can put out, its not 35W.

[pontiacg5]

That's like 68% of what it is supposed to be. Are you sure it's not a power supply or connection issue?

Sure would be nice if someone from FSL would comment on this issue. I know for a fact they read this board all the time.

[Laser Engraver]

I don't think the machine had any trouble with the power supply. I suppose it's possible that the machine had some issue with the power supply, but let me add this as well. The machine at 15mA was cutting through 1/4" of wood with no issue. At 15mA, the power peaked at around 25W and then went down to 22W and leveled at 24W. We then turned up the amperage to 18mA then 20mA. At 20mA the power peaked at around 28W then settled at 26W-27W. The larger laser's do just a little better, with a good 80W tube and power supply we measured about 62-64W. With a lower end power supply we got around 60W. I've never measured the output of the laser to be at it's rated value. The loss from each mirror was negligible, the beam combiner did contribute to higher losses. These measurements were all done without a beam combiner. The point is, these machines are cheap, you won't find another seller with a lower wattage rating. At least I don't think you will. It's a cheap tool, if you really want a good laser your going to pay 5X as much and it's not going to come from China.

[Exsecratio]

Thats one thing I do love about the UK make a load of BS claims about your product and Trading Standards turn up, remove most of your crap then prosecute you to the limit of the law

In reality we have a high end calibrated Ophir optical power meter and measure roughly 40w peak which drops to around ~35W average in .5s when the tube is new.

oh dear...

So the initial strike is 40 watts....and? if it drops to 35 watts before it moves then it's not really a 40 watt laser is it? it's a 35 watt laser because that's the maximum you will have available to actually use.

35 watt average? over what test number? 1 tube? 10 tubes? 100,000 tubes?

Peak and mean figures?

Take 3 tubes....

tube 1: 45 watts
tube 2: 40 watts
tube 3: 20 watts

Guess what the average is? yay!! we have a winner...35 watts....I don't think the guy who gets the 20 watt tube is going to care though.

It's human nature, give us enough information to come to the wrong conclusion and most of us will

90% of users tested said their cat preferred spearmint toothpaste.... 90% of 10 people ain't a lot Look up Brian Dunnings work on sales methodology (skeptoid.com) it will sure provide a few giggles

best wishes

Dave

[patrick_777]

I'm not bagging on FSL for selling the laser, and I honestly wouldn't want to keep them from selling it. My first experience with a laser engraver was when this one showed up on my doorstep, and I'm already making a decent profit margin on pieces coming out of it.

I do, however, wish they would give up the somewhat shady marketing practices such as -- selling a 30w laser and labeling it 40w because they got 40w on a meter once for .5s. -- Advertising a free laser tube FOR LIFE if you win their contest, but not really FOR LIFE unless you just KEEP winning every month. Shady mirrors. Hinky lasers. Dubious lenses. Nefarious salestaff. It all adds up to a growing mistrust in someone you're paying money too. They can't be dragging in that many customers to actually justify these marketing ploys, so why not just bite the bullet and sell it as a 30w laser with a lot of American-made parts a pretty good interface (RetinaE). The US support and US parts would bring in some users. Plain honesty would bring more though.

[pontiacg5]

Advertising a free laser tube FOR LIFE if you win their contest, but not really FOR LIFE unless you just KEEP winning every month.

I wondered how they could afford that. Now I know

The only reason I bought my laser from FSL and not directly from china is because I wanted to have half a chance of getting my cash back if something went bad. What do you do if you send 10 grand to china and they don't send you a laser. Not a whole lot...

They have the potential to be an awesome company though, if they would just drop all the half truths and censoring on their forum.

[keebler303]

They meant free for the life of the tube, of course!

Matt

[patrick_777]

They meant free for the life of the tube, of course!

...but only the industrial standard definition of "life", which is approximately 25% longer than the Chinese internal standard.

Also, just for clarity,

Every month we will select the best made "laser thing" by a Full Spectrum Laser LLC device and give a free replacement 40W laser tube.
...
If you keep winning our design contest, you will never need to buy another CO2 laser tube again.

[InfernusDoleo]

As you can see from my multiple threads here, I have a love-hate relationship with FSL.

I came back to the forums today to peruse the old threads - someone in one of them mentioned the true manufacturer and model of the 40watt hobby, I'm trying to find a schematic so I can rebuild part of it (cutting out the bottom to put in a rotary tool).

And while here I started reading.

The good: FSL's "Retina" product truly is amazing. It's a fantastic controller that has some amazing software, and some great capabilities. They are ALWAYS improving it. Even though I think the company still practices some shady crap*, I'm going back to them for my large format laser, because the controllers inside it are so phenominal.

The bad: I absolutely HATE the way they do business:

• The moderated forums, err, oops, I mean "online helpdesk".
• The "100% american based company" which, to almost anyone who doesnt stop to think about it, sounds like "100% american made" - something I actually fell for buying their laser. I found them, originally on ebay, then bought from their site, and was shocked to see their 100% US laser had what seemed to be cheap chinese parts in it
• Apparently the 40W laser, isn't.
• I'm hoping it's not still standard practice, but they USED to buy good reviews by giving you more warranty for a 5 star review. I cannot say if this is still practiced.

And one last NEW one, that I've never posted before: Lenses. (* Above mentioned 'shady crap') Lenses on their site are $300 a pop. The original lens that came with my 40W cracked, and I was looking to buy a new one - I emailed and asked if it was covered by warranty (knowing it's technically a consumable, and very likely not, but, it never hurts to ask). It's not. Ok, no biggie. So I asked why the lesnes on their site are $300 each, when I can get one on ebay for $45? The ebay ones are cheap chinese lenses. Their $300 ones are very high quality pro lenses.

I asked then why the hell did mine break?

Because the lens that ships with the laser, is a cheap chinese made one.

Am I wrong in my assumption that if you're buying a laser, that comes with a 2" focus lens, and 'options' when buying include a $300 1.5" lens, a $300 2.5" lens, and a $300 5" lens, that the 2" lens that comes in it is ALSO a $300 lens?

It's like FSE puts out 70% of the info, leaves out the "bad" 30%, and lets you assume the rest.

Yes, I assumed I had a $300 lens in my laser. It's not. It's a cheap $40 one.

Pissed me off.

So, all that being said: FSE has gone above and beyond with a few things with me, I guess to make it up to me the hassles I've had. They replaced some stuff for me when they didnt have to. Twice I believe. It's like there's a disconnect somewhere... like one guy is running a decent company, putting out a great product, providing good customer service, but the other guy who owns it thinks its ok to tell half of the truth (and omit the possibly bad stuff), only allow positive things to be said in the areas they control, to bend the truth in some areas, and say things and allow customers to assume the rest with some true, but misleading statements.

Play to your strenghts. You have 100% us based SUPPORT. You have 100% US engineering and control systems. Advertise that you take a cheap piece of crap chinese laser, and turn it into a killer machine. Advertise that your machines are geared to hobbyists who like to tinker and improve. Create, then advertise that you have, an OPEN forum for people to discuss the machines, support each other, tinker, change, modify, and improve on them.

FSE is SO close to being a killer company, but there's these little things that just eat at that.

For me to be so absurdly furiously pissed at a company, and yet still buy from them (I'm, as we speak, getting financing on a $10,000 laser from FSE) and promote them, says they have a fantastic PRODUCT that cannot be beat anywhere else. But dammit, FSE guys, just be open and honest about EVERYTHING and you'll gain more respect and customers than you can imagine. I work heavily now in some open source hardware projects. The community there is amazing. We take something and improve on it, and EVERYONE wins. I'm not saying make your stuff open source, but take a cue from the community atmosphere, and the OPEN exchange of true information and ideas.

If the labeled 30W tube actually performs as a 40W tube, but has a consistent output of 35W, just sell the goddamned laser as a 35W laser. NO ONE is going to give a **** it's only 35W instead of 40W, because you're truthful about it and it's a fantastic price, with killer control software.

Knock off the "extol and inflate the good, and brush the bad under the rug" crap. Be HONEST. You'll have an absurdly loyal and ever growing customer base.

If I didnt believe in the product I've have just posted that they are liars and cheats and full of ****. But, here I am, spending 30 minutes of my busy day this morning, posting this, because I believe in the PRODUCT. I just wish the company were as good.

(A disclaimer: Many of the individuals at FSE are amazing. Jason, in particular, took a lot of time to explain some things to me lately regarding metal vs glass tubes, and he was brutally honest about it, and I really did appreciate that.)

[rayscott]

Hello,

I think I have read enough info about your questions..and other people's responses. The laser tube that you have is produced as a unit with peek perormance to 40 watts. That means that it might spike to 40 watts if it ever hits the pedrfect conditions. ..Perfect voltage, perfect current in milliamps, perfect temperature... etc.

I asked a chinese factory rep what they thought of the 70cm (40 watt) laser tube. Is this really a 40 watt? I did not let them actually answer before I showed them my laser power meter. They instantly started to stumble on their words. The point is that items should not be labeled to the max possible output. As an engineer, I was taught to use "safety factors" and to rate products with a margin of error. Let's be serious about the stuff we sell and give a realistic level of usability.

At Rabbit Laser USA, we market the 70cm laser tube as a 30 watt tube.

Ray Scott
Owner / Engineer
Rabbit Laser USA
513-217-5707

Rabbit Laser USA