Laser cutting engraving one machine?

[envco]

Thanks in advacne.

I'm looking to cut 1.5mm stainless, but as well laser etch it. Min working length would need to be 1.1m.

Are there any machines out there that do both in one? Something the size of half a sheet of metal?

Also I wonder with all the CAD/CAM G-Code robotic arms on the market now... is anyone making a EOAT with multiple laser heads? I am also starting to debate the logic of a machine over an arm. These guys have been really informative about the software needs CAM to G Code www.globalrobots.com

Making me really wonder about these tables...

Cut and etch in one, anyone?

Thanks again. Heaps to read! Thought I would ask!

[Tweakie]

Just a thought ;
Although the robotic arms are very nice it would be a nightmare to get a laser beam, of the power you would require to cut 1.5mm SS, to the end of the arm, especially for 6 axis. (Not impossible just difficult).

Tweakie.

[envco]

Been a bit of a voyeur in the shops for many years. Machine shop pervert so to speak. Everybody with a new machine has wk, mth, yrs of downtime in learning a new machine. A guy who bought a Thurgood 5 axis unit for 250,000USD + told me it took him 3 years to fully learn it. Proficient.

As a small guy, projects only. I’m looking for something that can sort many applications. Cut, Mill, drill, and yes maybe engrave for one project. With my current provider of laser engraving this one project cost me 33,000. I’ll consider to buy for this.

One thing for sure is every machine I look at is for a "specific" job. I mean a new machine has limitations. I cannot do everything I want to do with one machine. So that means I have 2-3 4x4 tables in the shop and some of those will not work the z axis needed. 4” ha!

Here is the steal in my opinion. 10,000USD. For an near new arm on ebay. 2000hrs. 200kg payload. Repeatability of 0.4mm with a reach of 2.8m giving me a working space of near 2m x 2m x 4m. That's huge! Software is the funny bit because a robot is stupid, a 2 year old robot that is.

Interchangeable payloads. They’re out there and I would assume no more expensive than the tooling being added to tables.

All the new Kura and ABB robots are CAD/CAM G-Code compliant. Some offer 0.06mm repeatability but that is all related to set up speed and payload weight.

If you have a lot of faith, you can turn a complete milling system for Robots Unlimited for 25,000 USD. This is everything. New 95,000 USD but this is still cheaper than a single professional grade table unit.

Just my thoughts. I’m a sensor guys for the environment. I build all kinds of stuff working in Carbon Fibre, SS, alloy and plastics. Kind of hard to find one machine to do this all without limitations. The only liability free avenue, machine wise, in my choice is the arm.

I’ve been reading about all these machines and everyone’s experiences with them and it makes me feel even more risky plonking down 20,000 on a table unit. I’ll transport it overseas, plug it in, and it does not work. Not all the table people have service and support overseas. ABB, Faunc, and Kura, in almost every country of the world.

If anyone else has any Robot first hand, please detail more. Youtube is an excellent tease for these machines, milling robots. Robotmaster software I am told is 25,000 US but turns this arm into your milling table......

Ideas anyone.

[Tweakie]

Looks like you have talked yourself into a robot arm then.

These 'second user' ABB units certainly look excellent value for money but I think they are probably more suited to plasma cutting than laser. I have also found that 6 axis software is a bit more specialized and not so commonly available at a reasonable price and as a result robotic arms are usually operated via the 'teach' method rather than 'CAD / CAM'. Ideal system for repetition / production work but not so for one off or prototype stuff.

Interesting project you are contemplating - good fortune with it and please keep us informed of your progress.

Tweakie.

[Litografa]

I am very surprised with robot prices in your link Never thought that robots are so affordable.
From first view idea looks brilliant for laser cutting, but main problem is HOW DELIVER LASER to moving robot head.

[envco]

As I understand a robotic arm has no idea of its orientation. It is taught where it is in the real world. New robots have this built in. Older than 2 years you’re looking at 25,000 robotmaster software and the cost of setting up a work cell. All yourself of course. Interesting enough with most tables, that what I read most of you guys are doing anyway. Heaps of work commissioning the systems. http://www.globalrobots.com/

Youtube is full of Robot applications.
Aluminum milling http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+aluminum&aq=f
Laser cutting and welding
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...+aluminum&aq=f
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...laser+cut&aq=f

As far as tooling, EOAT (End of Arm Tooling). This is only limited by the payload of the arm. You will see youtube videos where they attach a chair on the end of the arm and give amusement part rides ([nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uet_CKl7jmM"]YouTube- Holden Factory Robot Chair ride[/nomedia]). Plenty of lift even for an abrasive saw. A torch or mill only depends on material and speed of cutting. Obviously accuracy has to do with distance from center (at 2.2m out it will not be as accurate as 500mm from the arm) because of all the axis in use and the +/- specs of each joint. So in a sense distance compounds error. .

So I keep looking at money. Cost + limitation = choice. Seems like I’ve read a telephone book of “best table mill” best plasma table” and everyone is + or – about everything. The truth is everyone I’ve talked to that has gotten an arm working, never would buy a table again.

So the debate is were to put 25,000? A robot is cheaper to ship! +1 It stores in less space in your shop. +2....... I guess maybe I’m asking you guys.... is there anything this versatile in a table? Interchangeable from mill to plasma, maybe laser? Minimum 200mm z axis? Working space of 2.2 meters

If you were to buy one machine to drill and mill aluminium 110x110mm box extrusions, mill 45 degress into the ends, drill 16mm holes on 2 axis... what machine would this be and how much would it cost? Frankly an alloy saw to handle 45’s in a 110 box is 15,000.

Honestly I’m a first time user of any of this. Am I scared to learn, no. I am aware of risk, just limiting it. I guess what I should look at is what I can sell the equipment for if all else fails. I’ve invested 2 years in the design of the system/product, and now production looks to be a bigger obstacle and more costly if I follow a traditional direction. If I buy tables, I need at least 2. Robot, one and interchangeable parts.

I know I’m going to get either you’re a genius or an idiot. I get this all the time. Anyone else out there in this same position or looking at the same avenue? First hand is much better than speculation! Anyone know Global Robots?

[Maanasi]

Hey,
I was looking through the forum and I thought your conversation was interesting. I read through the thread and here's what I think. Its just an idea...

I think it depends on the power. More power means cutting less power means etching.. but this solution will have more cycle time. Once the metal is cut, the eoat has to be programmed to yield lesser power for etching... the programming has to be done by cad/cam.

There is another solution, it is to buy 2 robots. One for cutting and one for etching. Since the problem is for etching, you can buy one robot for cutting.. either laser cutting or plasma cutting.... and put a etching machine seperate on a fixed positioner.. Thats going to cost less. That is as good as one robot holding two eoat.

The costs of the robot again depend on the weight of a laser cutting machine to select which robot a company like ABB might recommend.


Thanks,
Maanasi

[envco]

Yes I have kind of figured I won't get away with one machine. Still studying as it looks like we all do.

I'm at a catch 22. Alloy 2.2 meters long 108mm square 4mm wall thickness. Now what makes 45 degree ends. A saw? 18,000 USD. Ok I've got to drill it on 2 axis. No table does this unless I run 1 section at a time. Lots of man hours handling.

Here's the snag
Saw 18,000 New
Milling table (2.4m) 40,000 New
This is the 58,000 no risk avenue. It will work.

Robot arm 13,000
EOAT 5000
Software 4000
Table Jig 2000
24,000 risk associated avenue.

This is one (main) project. It is the reason I'm looking at arms. The laser comes onto this as I have one project (purchase order pending) which would require 33,000 (I'll buy my own for this) in laser engraving. I assume with a payload change I could be capable of doing this with a robot. The cutting is cheap so I could still outsource this or buy a plasma table 15,000 which is still below the risk free option. I can use a plasma table for 100's of projects. So no loss there. This is where I'm up in the air.

I read all of these Plasmacam type machine postings and everyone's +/-. Again if I am to buy one table, which is the most cost effective limited liability machine. Practical was cool with the tool change to laser but their gone. Anything else out there reasonably friendly in a diversified shop application?

The other cinch pin is that I'm in New Zealand. Power 240v no problem, but support? Tables maybe 5 companies. Arms have manufacturer support local.

Did I mention I'm a redneck from Memphis Tenn.

Anyone else out there running robots and can give me an idea of the pain and suffering? Was it worth it?

Thanks..

[envco]

I am very surprised with robot prices in your link Never thought that robots are so affordable.
From first view idea looks brilliant for laser cutting, but main problem is HOW DELIVER LASER to moving robot head.

keyword: effector
http://www.haaslti.com/RoboticEndEffectorSys.html

A few pop up just on image search. Who knows, could start my own evil science lab just like that James Bond movie! A table to laser people in half!

wooohhaaa wooohhhhhaaaa..

[Litografa]

I know HAAS but last time I was in touch with this company 5-6 years ago. That time whole system (laser CO2 100 Wt plus delivery system) was priced over $20 000

[envco]

Ok I have given up. I'm going robot. Seems I can make 5000-10000 even if I sell it down here.

I found this today. Thought those interested would benefit from a turnkey milling robot. http://robo-mill.com/ Too small for my need.

I'll almost certainly go with the ABB arm and a plasma table. Laser engraving I'll look to add onto the table, not the arm. I would prefer to use the arm but I imagine putting a laser on the end and learning would be a morons mistake.

So I will start with foam and work myself to more solid material. So in about 3 months you might see some post of this setup.

Thanks for letting me bounce ideas around guys.... much appreciated.

[Litografa]

Do not forget post here results. I am very interested to see.