Tool Numbers - recommendations?

[Scott Kelley]

I'm a newbie at CNC machining, and I don't know whether there are any issues that will pop up down the road related to tool numbering.

I have plenty of tool-holders, so I will be able to leave cutters in place in the holders.

What I am wondering is whether there are any conventions, or personal preferences that you may want to pass on for numbering cutting tools, or should I just start at #1 and number them randomly?

Thanks

[christinandavid]

Hi,

Have been running machining centres for ten years and have seen issues with tool numbers. At my first place the work was divided up into small operations requiring on average 5 tools and at most 12-16 tools per op. It was our common practice to program from T1 onwards. We would clear the carousel between ops and we had drawers to keep tooling for each op. Each op had a standard setting sheet with a spreadsheet style tool list. Tools were always numbered in the order they appeared in the program. This is a great system when you are using smaller consumable tooling eg little drills and end mills.

I now work at a place with larger machining centres (60 pot ATC) and they mainly use modular tooling systems and indexable insert tools. With all the separate components it is not desirable to keep stripping down the carousel between jobs so people tend to keep favourite tools set in their machine and program with the tool number in mind. The things that annoy me about this approach are: -

1 Programs end up looking untidy and so do setting sheets.
2 When there is tooling shortage (which is most of the time) tools tend to disappear from your carousel anyway, then you have to remember their original position when you get them back.
3 You end up spending all day looking for something that is tucked away in someones machine not being used.
4 When you take a program with out of sequence tool numbers and run a machine with a migratory tool changer, things can get pretty confusing.

It will take a long time to resolve all the issues in our 'system' but in the meantime I have implemented a system on the machine I run that makes us more responsive in terms of setting tools/jobs. The control is a recent Fanuc. We setup a folder for an op/job. In there are main and sub pgms. We also write a 'parameters' pgm that lists the tools, work offsets and any other parameters required, eg

#101=1 (Spot Drill)
#102=2 (Drill)
etc etc

In our main program, rather than program tool numbers and corresponding offsets eg T1 M6;G43 H1 D1; we now put T#101 M6; G43 H#101 D#101;
This approach means that: -
1. The pgm is tidier, always starting from T#101 and continuing in sequence.
2. If a tool you can use (eg a spot drill) is already set up in the carousel at pot57 you merely change the value in the list (eg #101=57 Spot Drill).
3. No more swapping tools around, resetting tools, editing pgms (very risky with T, H and D to find), no loading up offsets or changing values in offset tables, even when running multiple ops - as each op has its own parameter list.

It works well and is saving us time and heartache. There are many other benefits you find out as you go.

We now do the same for Work Offsets as we never seem to get the same combination of setups twice...

Hope this hasn't confused the issue!

DP

[jweinhold]

I agree with DP, we currently have over 225 tools in use. Our programmers are not the operators so tool definition becomes difficlut at times. When we remove a tool we label it if we are going to leave it in the tool holder we also include any mesurements.

JW

[ToolWall]

Originally Posted by Scott Kelley I'm a newbie at CNC machining, and I don't know whether there are any issues that will pop up down the road related to tool numbering. I have plenty of tool-holders, so I will be able to leave cutters in place in the holders. What I am wondering is whether there are any conventions, or personal preferences that you may want to pass on for numbering cutting tools, or should I just start at #1 and number them randomly? Thanks

You can organize your tools, number them and upload offsets using Tool Wall. When you finished organizing every tool in the shop has a Tool Wall number.
The system makes a copy of your program file. It scrolls though your program and prompts you to point out a Tool Wall number when it finds a T## M06.
At the end of the process you have a file that is programmed with the Tool Wall numbers, called "Master Code".
The System keeps track of all tools and knows which tool is in which machine and pocket.
If you now call for a new job, the program scans the file for the tools you need and tells you which tool is already in the machine and which tool you have to add. Just follow the instructions on your machine controller and install the tools as prompted. The offsets are uploaded automatically and the program is changed according to the new tool locations.
Well that is all. You are ready to run. You don't have to keep track of any tools at all as long as you maintain the system.
A typical setup takes 5 min.
The program is free.
http://www.tool-wall.com/twsys.htm

[dertsap]

Originally Posted by Scott Kelley I have plenty of tool-holders, so I will be able to leave cutters in place in the holders. What I am wondering is whether there are any conventions, or personal preferences that you may want to pass on for numbering cutting tools, or should I just start at #1 and number them randomly? Thanks

numbering tools depends upon a few things , are you doing production runs of the same parts , and cycling thru fixtures for each different part run while trying utilizing the same tooling sequence, or are you jobbing and unsure of which tool you will need and when ,
is your tool magazine random pot or not , if its not random then you will want to group your tools in a way that you will have minimal wait time for the tool change , the wait may sound worth it in the short term but this accumulates into a large production time loss over a 1 year period

[titanium frost]

Originally Posted by christinandavid Hi, It will take a long time to resolve all the issues in our 'system' but in the meantime I have implemented a system on the machine I run that makes us more responsive in terms of setting tools/jobs. The control is a recent Fanuc. We setup a folder for an op/job. In there are main and sub pgms. We also write a 'parameters' pgm that lists the tools, work offsets and any other parameters required, eg #101=1 (Spot Drill) #102=2 (Drill) etc etc In our main program, rather than program tool numbers and corresponding offsets eg T1 M6;G43 H1 D1; we now put T#101 M6; G43 H#101 D#101; This approach means that: - 1. The pgm is tidier, always starting from T#101 and continuing in sequence. 2. If a tool you can use (eg a spot drill) is already set up in the carousel at pot57 you merely change the value in the list (eg #101=57 Spot Drill). 3. No more swapping tools around, resetting tools, editing pgms (very risky with T, H and D to find), no loading up offsets or changing values in offset tables, even when running multiple ops - as each op has its own parameter list. It works well and is saving us time and heartache. There are many other benefits you find out as you go. We now do the same for Work Offsets as we never seem to get the same combination of setups twice... Hope this hasn't confused the issue! DP

We have been using the Tool Wall program for a while and it does pretty well exactly what you are doing (and more), but we don't edit the G-code or offsets manually. It's done automatically. Plus we don't have to keep track of where the tools are. The Tool Wall program does it for us. Using this (and your) system, the tool locations in the machine change everytime we run a particular program, but it's of no concern, because the Tool Wall program knows where the tools are and adjusts the g-code to suit. Just like you, we are adjusting the g-code to the tools, rather than the other way around. But we are doing it automatically (and way way faster).

Originally Posted by Scott Kelley I'm a newbie at CNC machining, and I don't know whether there are any issues that will pop up down the road related to tool numbering. I have plenty of tool-holders, so I will be able to leave cutters in place in the holders. What I am wondering is whether there are any conventions, or personal preferences that you may want to pass on for numbering cutting tools, or should I just start at #1 and number them randomly? Thanks

When we organized our tools for the Tool Wall program, we kept the numbers for similar tools close together (ie all the drills are say #1 thru 80, mills are 81 - 120 etc...), but you could also be completely random. It's good that you are thinking of this now. I don't think everyone realizes how much time (and $$) is lost to operators and machinists looking for tools. We know where EVERY tool is, even if it is in a machine.

Originally Posted by ToolWall You can organize your tools, number them and upload offsets using Tool Wall. When you finished organizing every tool in the shop has a Tool Wall number. The system makes a copy of your program file. It scrolls though your program and prompts you to point out a Tool Wall number when it finds a T## M06. At the end of the process you have a file that is programmed with the Tool Wall numbers, called "Master Code". The System keeps track of all tools and knows which tool is in which machine and pocket. If you now call for a new job, the program scans the file for the tools you need and tells you which tool is already in the machine and which tool you have to add. Just follow the instructions on your machine controller and install the tools as prompted. The offsets are uploaded automatically and the program is changed according to the new tool locations. Well that is all. You are ready to run. You don't have to keep track of any tools at all as long as you maintain the system. A typical setup takes 5 min. The program is free. http://www.tool-wall.com/twsys.htm

Love the program...but we are limited to just 320 tools. Why is that?

[BobWarfield]

Fascinating topic.

I like the parameter-based convention (e.g. #100). Sure would be nice if the CAM program put a nice table at the top of the G-Code to make it easy to assign the tools for a particular machine's configuration.

Optimizing for tool change (how close the tools are to one another) and other factors also seems important.

Lastly, it seems to me that a shop's decisions WRT standardizing on certain things could also make a huge difference.

All this should lead to the software being able to minimize time from a lot of perspectives to answer what is in essence this question:

What's the least number of tools I have to swap in the carousel, and changes to the g-code program, to run any of these jobs as optimally as possible?

Quite a few tradeoffs have to be made there, if you think about it.

Best,

BW

[ToolWall]

Originally Posted by BobWarfield Fascinating topic. Optimizing for tool change (how close the tools are to one another) and other factors also seems important. BW

The Tool Wall program scans through the G-Code and looks at the machining sequence.
Tools are then placed in such a way that the tools following each other are put as close as possible together.

http://www.tool-wall.com/software.htm

[christinandavid]

Hi all,

Tool Wall sounds like a fantastic utility, but is probably rendered useless by the simple fact that we do not have enough tool-holding components to keep every conceivable tool set up. Plus the fact that no 'type' of tool could ever be suitable for every job, ie every tool we setup would have to be about 500mm long to be sure to be suitable for every situation. Me and my fellow operators sometimes have no choice but to strip down 'dedicated' tools just for an extension or adaptor. It can go as far as 'every man for himself' as far as tooling goes!

One thing that makes me smile about our current setup is the time and effort put into the 'job file' which involves photographing each tool and recording the serial numbers of each separate component. I often make the joke that the photo is 'the tool you're not gonna find' and I tend to use whatever is to hand - hence the need for flexibility and my parameter based system.

I will continue to make suggestions to improve our lot (as mentioned previously, thousands of hours can be lost locating tooling). Unfortunately management seem more intent on improving machining times (probably a small fraction of the overall time/money spent on the job) by investing in new and exotic tools. This, of course, can compound the problem, as instead of sticking to a standard set of tools you end up looking for a particular needle in a stack of needles.

Can Tool Wall keep track of extensions/adaptors/arbors as well as dedicated tools?

DP

[ToolWall]

Can Tool Wall keep track of extensions/adaptors/arbors as well as dedicated tools?
DP[/QUOTE]

Tool Wall keeps track of all your tools and a tool does not have to be in a holder as long as a number has been assigned to it. You can make or buy a receptacle adapter and you created a trackable item.
For drills it is the same. If you have 4 drills with different length, you create 4 drills in 4 locations. The program remembers which one you need in your code. You even can set a minimum length a drill can have. When the drill was sharpened too often and it became too short for a job, the system will block that drill from being used when called on.
What do you mean by "Dedicated" tool?
A tool that is dedicated to a machine can be set to stay in the machine.
If you mean dedicated to a job: Tool Wall knows which tool you need for each G-Code you want to run.
Each tool in the Tool Wall Data program has a field for "Remarks" and you can put there what ever you want. For example: This drill to be used with a 3" extension.
I hope I answered your questions.

[christinandavid]

Hi, thanks for info.

Have looked on the site and will definitely make a suggestion to the powers that be to look into using the application.

Because of our limited supply of tooling I feel that just as important as knowing the location of each tool is being able to schedule jobs so that the tool is not needed in two places at once - and a quick scan of the site does suggest there is a facility for planning a job schedule...so it definitely is worth looking at.

I trust that any conflicts/shortages can be quickly identified by the software?

Just got to make my superiors believe it was their suggestion and maybe they will consider it...

DP

[ToolWall]

I trust that any conflicts/shortages can be quickly identified by the software?
Just got to make my superiors believe it was their suggestion and maybe they will consider it...

DP[/QUOTE]

You can pre-scan every job to see the tool availability in the S.A.M. Module of the software.

I see that you know how the corporate hierarchy works. You will be going long ways.