Plea for help!

[123CNC]

Before anyone calls the guys with the straight jackets or ask if I'm off my medication, hear me out (when I'm done, you can lock me up and throw away the key).

Like many of the CNCzone members, I've been seriously bitten by the CNC bug. And like many more of us, I've also hoped for the chance or oppurtunity to make a living at something I truly enjoy doing rather than just having a job to keep Uncle Sam fat and happy (If I'm happy while keeping him fat and happy, then OK).

But of course in this upside down economy, there are not many open ears to new ventures and lending in general, especially real estate. But I would like to believe that the overall bad cirumstance opens up new oppurtunities.

A commercial property has come up for private sale locally, northern California (Sacramento area, not too terribly far from S.F. Bay Area). It is fairly large for this particular area with over 24,000 sq.ft. in the main building on 5 or 6 acres of land. It was a small manufacturing facility with sheet metal shop and machine shop. The shop equipment is included in the sale, although I'm certain much of it is antique (haven't seen yet). Another upside, 3-phase power.

Commercial loans are tough and would therefore be looking at all possibilities and options to find a doable solution.

Entertaining many possibilities,

manufacturing hobby level cnc equipment, parts or kits
importing base machines and 'CNC'ing
hobby level 'industrial' style robots
leasing shop/land space
machine club similar to art communes in West Oakland or Berkeley (although remote location not well suited for this)
with that said, industrial art/machine club
rent/lease machine/build space
design/prototype shop

Looking for any other ideas or suggestions, like minded people (crazy or not), how would you approach this (medicated or not), how to pitch the sale, and how to find/approach partners, lenders, etc.

Without a working model and business revenue, cash flow history, I know the short answer, thus the plea for help.

And if 9 out of 10 strongly recommend pouring another strong drink or sobering up, well I won't do it willingly, but if its doctor's orders...

[Runner4404spd]

well if you decide to venture over to the practical machinist board you will find why alot of guys are going out of business. you can't really make a whole lot of money selling hobby stuff. everyone wants something cheap but really reall good. as for actually being a machine shop, no bank in their right mind will give you a loan for it and really anyone else unless they really are itching for a very difficult way to make money would stay away from it. building and land are cheap now, and old antique machinery is liability, you'll spend more time fixing it than running your business.

[billystein]

hi 1
listen to runner. if this is a hobby then fine. if you intend to make a living then get real. if you have been paying attention then you know manufacturing is a challenge against 3rd world countries. and were losing.
sorry to be so negative.
good luck
billy

[harryn]

Hi 123CNC - glad to see your post.

There is a hobby machining / wood working location on the Penisula that has a lot of members. It has so much demand that actually they are now over their original goals. It might be useful to visit and see if their model can fit into your plans.

TechShop
120 Independence Dr.
Menlo Park, CA 94025
(800) 640-1975

I almost joined, but have resisted so far - and it is not that convenient for me.

The best way to get something like this together is with equity, not loans. I will send a PM to you and we can discuss further how to pull it off.

As a practical matter, I think it is better to have a product in mind to produce sufficient to consume spare capacity rather than being entirely dependent on outside customers.

[cob]

can someone tell me how to get in touch or is there a web site to

(machine club similar to art communes in West Oakland or Berkeley)

also are there any members here who attend the TECH SHOP in MENLO PARK.
and do you guys ever do any club gathering.

[123CNC]

I'm well aware of my own perception of the economy, and the media's constant doom and gloom, just hoping some have stayed closer to or have seen the silver lining. Guess not too many.

Cob,

There are many 'art' shops that dot the landscape of West Oakland and Berkeley, was making a general statement to their existence rather then any one specific. Many aren't formally organized, others are and run legitimate businesses.

Harry posted the TechShop information upthread and I was also making a general reference to The Crucible in Oakland, an industrial/ arts school which was previously in Berkeley. They often have billboards in their area touting their existence and purpose, and can be found on the web at http://www.thecrucible.org/

[nooby-Dan]

I'm taken with the idea of a public access workshop. I've googled for one in the SoCal area but nothing comes up. Is anyone aware of such a place in SoCal?

[WLee]

Originally Posted by 123CNC Before anyone calls the guys with the straight jackets or ask if I'm off my medication, hear me out (when I'm done, you can lock me up and throw away the key). Like many of the CNCzone members, I've been seriously bitten by the CNC bug. And like many more of us, I've also hoped for the chance or oppurtunity to make a living at something I truly enjoy doing rather than just having a job to keep Uncle Sam fat and happy (If I'm happy while keeping him fat and happy, then OK). But of course in this upside down economy, there are not many open ears to new ventures and lending in general, especially real estate. But I would like to believe that the overall bad cirumstance opens up new oppurtunities.

There are always 2 ways of looking at the glass -- half-full, and half empty.

People who start new businesses during an economic downturn are going "against the herd" -- and as such are always viewed as a bit "nuts."

But out of such circumstance, many great successes are born. (Whether you want to cite HP, Apple, Microsoft, or going back further in history, a host of others).

At the same time, the cold hard reality is that 9/10 new business will "fail" (from the viewpoint that within 5 years they will no longer exist). That failure does not always mean "disaster" (though it can) -- in the vast majority of cases, they simply were not "successful" and were not able to gain enough momentum or positive cash-flow to achieve long term (> 5 years) viability.

A commercial property has come up for private sale locally, northern California (Sacramento area, not too terribly far from S.F. Bay Area). It is fairly large for this particular area with over 24,000 sq.ft. in the main building on 5 or 6 acres of land. It was a small manufacturing facility with sheet metal shop and machine shop. The shop equipment is included in the sale, although I'm certain much of it is antique (haven't seen yet). Another upside, 3-phase power.

If you look around enough, there are ALWAYS empty commercial properties available; and there are always underlying reasons WHY they are "empty" and stay "available" for a long period of time.

While SOME businesses may need such a large facility, the vast majority of "solid" businesses can be started (and proven/disproven) on a much smaller scale.

Commercial loans are tough and would therefore be looking at all possibilities and options to find a doable solution. Entertaining many possibilities, manufacturing hobby level cnc equipment, parts or kits importing base machines and 'CNC'ing hobby level 'industrial' style robots leasing shop/land space machine club similar to art communes in West Oakland or Berkeley (although remote location not well suited for this) with that said, industrial art/machine club rent/lease machine/build space design/prototype shop

You could just as easily posit ("dream") of using the facility to make cars (Tucker), or Airplanes, or start a wholesale shopping center, etc. -- none of that is based on ANYTHING of substance.

Now if you have a "passion" coupled with a related profound "skill" and combining that with a real "need" that is going unfulfilled in the current marketplace -- then you MIGHT be able to pull any one of those things off. (For example, your "passion" is for running retail, your "skill" is being able to sell iceboxes to Eskimos in the middle of a blizzard; and the "need" is that no one else if even trying to sell them iceboxes!).

But if you lack any one of those three -- or don't get them "combined" in the correct way -- then you are essentially doomed before you start.

I think you need to find -- or figure out -- what your "passion" related to CNC really is. (Is it based on building the machines? Using them? Teaching others to use them? -- each of those is an entirely DIFFERENT passion; and thus guides you towards a different path in WHAT business endeavor you are most likely to be successful at.)

Then you need to figure out what your "skill" is related to that. Are you good at "evangelizing/selling"? Or at "perfecting" the use & optimizing the value? Or at "teaching/growing" others? -- again each of those is a DIFFERENT skill, and will push the business in a different way than other skills would.

What I mean by this in a concrete example would be something like the following:

Let's say your PASSIONS are in trying "different things" with CNC -- learning & sharing, and possibly for helping younger (older?) people; And your SKILL is actual hand-on teaching and helping others (versus say writing/technical analysis); Then an ideal business -- one you would happily spend every waking hour developing and growing -- would be one that combines those things: Some type of private school/tutoring business that would initiate young (old?) into the "joys" of CNC. As you "try" new things and/or add new equipment, you could expand your "classes" and get your previous customers to return for more advanced sessions.

To do THAT, you don't need 24,000 square ft of floorspace, or a million-dollar commercial loan!

Instead you need to have a small setup (preferably "professional" but initially you might get away with something totally informal), and a way of reaching your prospective "market" of customers. Plus you have to have a practical attitude/plan towards your "competition" (there is ALWAYS competition) -- in this case it would be "trade schools" (government subsidized programs) etc.

How it could be approached?

Well, people are strange creatures -- they might be unwilling to pay $250 to get a CNC sign made; they might also be unwilling to pay $250 and make a 6 month commitment to sign up for a CNC class at the local tech-school -- BUT, combine those things, and the SAME people just MIGHT be willing to spend $250 (or even more) to take an "informal" class with a local "teacher" to gain access to a CNC machine, AND the fact that they will leave with a "custom sign" of their own design and made with their own "hands."

Students for such things might come from all walks of life -- retirees, local engineers, laid-off workers, inquisitive teens, etc. Give them an enticing and cheap "taster" session, and you could spark a bigger phenomenon.

Whether it would end up being a "profitable business" or simply a way to engage in (and pay for) your side-hobby; it could be a "success" regardless.

Lest someone think the above TOO insane, consider how many people pay exorbitant amounts of money to give their kids piano, guitar, or even ballet lessons (even though they KNOW that junior is not likely to be very good) -- I'd be willing to bet that at least HALF of the people reading this post probably took private "lessons" in some form of music/art at some point in their life; and likewise, as their "interest" in CNC was beginning, they probably would have paid good money to "try" a CNC machine before they got involved further (indeed, many of them "built" or bought their own machines BECAUSE no other avenue was available to them).

That the concept of "private lessons" is testable and transferable on a small level I can validate from my MULTIPLE incidents in my own experience: Decades ago (back in the 1970's), a local former school art-teacher setup a small "studio" (actually a shed attached to the back of the garage) and gave "oil painting" lessons -- if I recall, it was like a 6 week course and the charge was like $20 per session (plus materials, remember this WAS the 1970's so multiply that $20 by 4 or 5 to get today's "price") -- she ALWAYS had full classes and a waiting list. At the end of the course, the student ended up with a good set of supplies, a decent set of "skills" (basic understanding anyway -- though talent obviously varied), and a couple of finished paintings to hang on their wall (or hide in the closet as the case may be).

And even a "failure" at such a thing can be a guide to success. The art teacher's husband tried something very similar with woodworking (his own "passion" being turning and lathework). His experiment did NOT work out anywhere near as well as far as "classes" and instead, he ended up building spinning wheels for a living -- turned out people wanted to buy his finished product, rather than make one themselves -- and it became a viable niche manufacturing company. So his "school" was a failure. But it led to success; and today his little side-business {just google "Jensen Spinning Wheels"} has made him into one of the premier manufacturers of spinning wheels ...with a worldwide reputation.

So the question for the above "concept" is whether you can cost-effectively build an initial "studio" and then find a good place to "advertise" the same -- and CRUCIALLY (the REAL untested part) is whether people in your locale are willing to PAY the asking price in order to "try" doing CNC.

Its amazing what people WILL pay for things that are "hobbies/interests/classes" -- my sister in law teaches classes in jewelry-making (specifically making chain-linked "beaded" necklaces and the like). She runs the classes at the local library (free rent) and charges around $40 for a two hour session (with each student keeping their "work" at the end) can accommodate 8 people at a time, and runs as many sessions per month as she wants, and is nearly ALWAYS "sold out" with a waiting list for future classes. Her form of advertising? A website, plus word of mouth and flyers posted at the local Library -- IOW, very low cost.)

Could the same thing work for CNC? I don't see why not. (Heck, I'm convincing MYSELF onto trying something similar here locally right now -- and I live in a BFE locale). You might not get rich off of it, but it would probably pay for additional machinery/supplies (IOW a self-financing hobby).

Looking for any other ideas or suggestions, like minded people (crazy or not), how would you approach this (medicated or not), how to pitch the sale, and how to find/approach partners, lenders, etc. Without a working model and business revenue, cash flow history, I know the short answer, thus the plea for help. And if 9 out of 10 strongly recommend pouring another strong drink or sobering up, well I won't do it willingly, but if its doctor's orders...

Go with your passions, your skills, and try something SMALL-scale to test out your idea, then if your "proof of concept" works -- i.e. it is generating positive cash-flow -- either let it grow or see if it can be scaled (vertically into a bigger operation, or horizontally as some type of "franchise"); at that point, you will probably be able to get the capital you need, either from investors, or via loans; or if neither of those, then simply by retaining earnings and bootstrapping.

And don't get side-tracked by the "trappings" of successfull businesses (i.e. large facilities, fancy logos, signs or lobbies) -- those are just as often the signs of failure and idiocy (think Dot-Bomb companies); whereas conversely a small operation can be VERY profitable and rewarding even without the glamour (think Craigslist).

[123tool]

you start small and that includes your investment... never borrow money use only what you are willing to loose and keep your real job to put food on the table. First back the cars out of the garage then bring in one or two used machines, three phase machines can be run from a converter. If your ideas work out and you sell a few items reinvest all the money back into the business... I can't say that enough reinvest, reinvest and reinvest. The business will grow from the money you make and if it fails try a new product.

People will spend money on a hobby even in tough times just make a better product than anyone else. I did that a couple of years ago with the idea to make some tools for my hobby... to make a long story short a new cnc mill was delivered in January and a SL-10 next week. Be careful what you ask for hobbies turn into jobs then they are no longer a hobby.

Good Luck!
Doug

[KyleH2]

If you're at all serious about this you need to write up a business plan and submit it to financiers.

[JohnJW]

Too bad you're in NorCal and I'm in SoCal, near Pasadena. The people with the straitjackets are still looking for me but I've thrown away the meds. Anyway I have a mill, will most likely add a router and then a lathe in the coming month and move everything to its own ~800 sqft area with maybe another 800 sqft of open office space on top. No where near 24,000 sqft but just enough space to start.

There are some plans for the machines but I am beginning to think there is a very real possibility that everything will sit idle most of the time like the mill. It's a 5 year project and almost 3 years has elapsed.

Once the router and the lathe are added and the work area cleaned up I am thinking of possibly turning it into an semi public workshop but there are always liability concerns and the various cost issue of accommodating more people.

I really like the idea of open source and open forums where people freely share ideas and knowledge. As a person with no background in machining other than a couple classes at the local colleges I don't think I'll ever get started in cnc machining without forums like cnczone. . . . or maybe I shouldn't have stumbled across it. . .

Anyone interested forming some sort of "maching/manufacturing" club or even business? but initially it'll have to be after work hours and on weekends only. If it's a club type of gathering I think Linux OS, an open source cad like QCad and handwritten GCodes will probably be the most likely path . If it's a business type of gathering, I have one copy of visualmill to start and in quick succession we'll need to wean ourselves off educational copies of Rhino and Alibre and deal with the assorted hurdles and challenges of making it viable.

I read through WLee's post a couple time I definitely lack some elements of the dream, passion, skill, and need, but hopefully together with a few people those voids can be filled.

Everything will hinges on moving to an enclosed work area in the next couple month. Anyone interested?

[amwyyytg]

may be someone can help you!