Really Could Use Mentor Advice on Starting Shop

[CBCS]

First a little about myself
I Have been in Machining for 15 years since highschool.
I Have Been In North Carolina For Whole Time Originally From WV
I Have Mill And Lathe Exp Also 5 Axis On Both
Mostly i have been in Aerospace Field.Of course you can imagine i Have Picked Up Alot Of Knowledge In this Time. I have never Been Turned Down When i Submitt A Resume.Now That i Have Spent 95% of my time as operator.Starting As A Button Pusher Alll the way up to Floor Lead Position.

Now For My Questions
Because of Family Problems I need to move Back To My Home Town.
Wich after starting the initial JOB SEARCH in the area i couldnt find a place within 50 miles with a CNC Machine But Plenty of Mom and POP Manuel Shops as you can imagine in Rural part of West Virginia really no training or CNC machinist.But Did Find Job At a place that rebuilds Coal Mining Eqipment.
4-10 hour shifts so have a little free time

With that said i became curious about starting My Own Shop And would Love Some input.

The Area I am In Beckley Area is kinda well Placed As far as coal Mines Wich i will Network With To start with to Round Up Some Biz Before i take the Plunge.

And May Talk To some of the Smaller Shops As I know They Have been Ask to run Production But the Knowledge Just isnt there. Nor Will Be They Are Old School just trying to get by with training ppl off street (on Manuel Machines No Less.

1. Is it Hard Financially to Get Machines? Would i Need Company Name to Get Biz Loan
As for Personal Loan Will Not work For Some personal finance problems(Medical) Wich ruined my credit
How to get Started i guess is My Question

2.Machines-New? Used? Lease? Buy?
I def want cnc Lathe And Mill And At least a manual Brigeport Type Knee Mill

3.Programming Software?
I am as most of you guys and can stand in front of the machine and programm simple stuff froom my head.
But there is no way i would try to start a Biz Without some programming software. Any Suggestions? I have played with serfcam.Mastercam. And onecnc.

One CNC is the Best i can come up with for the money.Also Would need Some Training On Software as i said most of my machining life has been operator/optimizing/editing/and simple programming. But Have Excelled in all

4. If i try to get a Biz Loan What will i need to present to loaner?
i Mean i know the Coal mining Industry Needs Production And the More Local (On Time Parts) the better and they dod not care to Pay. Wich is why this idea is so Good For Me. I can really see Potential.

5. Quoting Jobs?
Is There A good Formula For this ?
Maybe there is even software im Unsure.
All i Do Know is Between My Wife And i i Have the Knowledge on Machining And Accounting And Shipping Covered.

Now To Sum Up

I Really Appreciate Any Input
I know A couple of Machines Would Pay for themselves if i can initially get the work.
This shouldnt be a major accomplishment for like i said Lack of Competition in Area
ANd this is My First Post And will Take All Advice Very Seriosly.
Im Sure i Have Left Out some very Important Questions That you Pioneers Have Came Across in your Adventures of Starting your Own Shop. Please By All Means Let Me Know.


Thanks Again For setting Thru All My Rambling Questions But really Think This Could Work.

CBCS

[REVCAM_Bob]

Not trying to be negative, but well sorry, I see red flags.
1. You start by saying 4 10 hour days do not leave you much free time.

I own a shop, and if I worked 4 10 hour days, I would consider myself to be on vacation.
You need to evaluate your desire to do this and must have a passion for it other than, "I could not find the job I want". You must be prepared to work 7 days a week 14 hours a day. If you are not prepared to do that you will fail.
I have seen it time and again- sorry, just the facts.

2. When starting a business most banks will not even validate the concept of the business being any sort of separate entity for a minimum of 2 years.
Until then, you are the business and so is your credit.

If you can get past these issues, and I think you can if you have the desire, put together some sort of plan first, i.e. the only answer to your question on how to quote is going to come from people in your area. How I quote or anyone else quotes is irrelevant to your situation. You must compare and benchmark to those you will compete against and find out if you can compete and still make money.

Hope that helps, not trying to be negative, but don't get involved in something you are not going to be happy with. Its not as easy as changing jobs if you find yourself not happy...

[REVCAM_Bob]

Sorry, did not read your post very carefully. It says 4 10's, and therefore you have some free time- Sorry.

Just be cautious and cover your tail.
There are a few ways to do it right. There are 1000 ways to do it wrong.
I know because I have tried about 900 of the wrong ones

[CBCS]

YES I WILL BE WORKING NORMAL (PUNCH CLOCK) JOB M-T 10 HOURS

SO WILL HAVE SOME FREE TIME

ANYONE ELSE CARE TO CHIME IN ON THIS THREAD PLEASE?



THANKS FOR ADVICE REVCAM

[chuy]

YA, don't do it... If things are good out in your area than go for it...I'm out here in california San Francisco bay area...You have to compete like crazy with the asians out here it's tough man, shops will do it for 35 an hour around here, because they have they're entire family and friends living and working together... But if you do I'm assuming your going to buy used machines..buy a good brand of used machine tools like a kitamura ,mori or matsurra soemthing along those lines, make sure you get yourself a nice sized tumbler... save you tons of time especially if your going at alone like myself and also skip the VMC..buy a HMC will save you tons of time on those third and fourth operations...I wish I did if I could go back that's what I would do. and make sure you get yourself a cheap surface grinder, those relieved neck e-mills tend to add up quick...

Software if your going to do simple stuff, buy bobcad it's like a grand and like 500 bucks for just a straight 2-d version if you get going good I'd buy mastercam great software... as far as quoting set your shop rate and that's it...Unless you get huge that's when you'll need a software...

[Dolphin USA]

Perfect place for ideas... Just remember for every 1 LARGE Shop there's 100 small!

[offroadxx]

Hi,
My.02 is 4-10's, THATS A PART TIME JOB. I have a shop here in Morgantown, WV and you must be very dedicated and disciplined to work for yourself. Just make sure you are going to do what you want to do and like to do. I think EVERYONE should work for themselves at least one time to see how it really is. They say that if you make it your first year you have a good chance in making it last. Price your jobs according to the area and the type of work you will be doing, produce quality work, and the continuous work will flow for you. GOOD LUCK!!

[miljnor]

I was extremely lucky when I started, I got a contract that paid roughly 40k in 2 months.

But then the work dried up, fortunately i didn't spend any of that money and was able to stick it out for another year until everything started picking up again.

The FIRST 5 YEARS WAS HELL if your not willing to put the time in ie 12-16 hours a day EVERY day of the week for 3-5 years your fooling yourself.

I just jumped in without a job for back up so you are already doing something that I tell others to do....and that is "don't quite you day job"

If I had it to do over with my present knowledge I would have kept my job and run the other at night and on the week ends so that I always had at least my wages to fall back on. And I would definitely build a Bridgeport Knee mill conversion for my first mill, or buy a really old CNC machine, and maybe retrofit a Mach3 or EMC onto it for starters...

You can find old Mories and old Haas (Tupperware) machines that are small enough for a garage and retro-fit them..

One reason for retrofitting an old one IMHO is good, is that you learn the machine forward and backward and can repair it or mod it easily for very little money.

And another reason is if you can make good parts with a POS homebuilt machine you can do anything!

You HAVE to keep Overhead extremely low to compete so NO machine payments will get you work because you can under price jobs initially and still make money. Once you get a good rep for your area then you can charge what your worth and still get jobs...

But I can tell you one thing that is THE MOST IMPORTANT thing to remember that allot of people that have been in business forget, PRICE alone will get you in the door. Some of the cheapskates out there you may not want to keep as customers but low prices will get you looked at. THIS ADVICE IS PURELY BEFORE YOU HAVE A REPUTATION.

Hope this helps

[NC Cams]

Get as big as you can but remain as small as you can be.

This seems to be in self conflict but not really.

YOu need GOOD equipment that will make GOOD parts. Something that is flexible yet productive. A V2Xt would be a good CNC mill but, today, they are surpassed by the TM-1's both in capability and speed and productivity. The V2Xt will be cheaper, the TM-1 much more robust/adaptive/contemporary with regard to today's machining capability.

The trick here is to find a ;market for your service and find one where you can collect your money from. It is easy to find guys to do work for who won't pay or won't pay well. Finding work that is GOOD paying and worthwhile is the trick.

If you spend good money going after lame machines, you'll not make money and always be behind. Spend the most you can barely afford to buy the best you can hardly afford - and then you'll still be barely satisfied. Finally, don't buy junk and hope/intend to "fix it up". You'll be fixing forever and not be making money - do you want a science project or to make parts????

If you're creating a science project, fine. If you're looking to create a CNC shop, spend the time and money and buy properly chosen machines for your known, target client base. Do NOT, NOT NOT buy everything on credit - spend your money wisely as the machines are an investment that can be recouped when/if the time comes when you have to liquidate. Good machines can be liquidated - junk can't be even hauled away after a while. Again, choose wisely and don't always thnik that yesteryear's "name" equipment is still viable - some "names" are simply that anymore, namely, hollow names that don't mean "service", not anymore anyway....

[miljnor]

No offense NC but you don't really know what your talking about!

Your a small shop with perfection on you brain and not making money. Perfect doesn't pay the bills. Making it to print pays the bills.

He already stated in a round about way that he has NO money to spend on machinery and I am here to tell you that if your starting out with nothing a small/medium or big machine payment is going to keep you from making a profit.

He has a job already and is at least making some money. Your doing him a disservice by telling him that cheep is more headache than its worth.

I can see from your mind set (perfection) you would have a problem with machines that aren't in perfect order, so you chase the wild geese to make junk perfect, which in your defense is more trouble than its worth.

But I spent my childhood making custom hot rod parts that were better than any commercial stuff on the biggest POS's known to man.

Adapt improvise overcome, not wine, debate then give up.

But proof is in the pudding, I own a fairly large company and am still growing how about you?

But alas we've had this discussion before! and is pointless to go down this path again to this fellows detriment.

[Geof]

miljnor; tut, tut, you will offend the Master.

CBCS;

Listen to miljnor he knows what he is talking about. How do I know? Simple, that is the approach I took 27 years ago using manual machines. Bust a gut using your skill to make cheap paid-for machines bring in the money to then move up to new units that can really make you money. I did not even look at CNC until 1999 and by then I had my own product on stream and being distirbuted in five countries. Since then I have installed 18 Haas machines from the TL1 up to a GR510 all paid for with cash. I now export regularly to eight countries and have the time and money to indulge my hobby; taking cruises all over the world.

Go for it.

[miljnor]

Damn i forgot to mention that!

Having your own product is huge!

It took me 9 years to partner with someone to get a product of my own and I have to say it sets you free!

You still have to make quality but you get to control the tolerancing and QC and not some dip dunk engineer that might not be able to make anything themselves much less spec something out that can work properly and be built with a budget!

And my favorite thing, now that I make my own stuff, is to design the part so that deviations in tolerances don't screw the pouch so to speak.... An art form in and of it self!