Help with programming quotes

[howdyall]

Greetings,

Been shopping a small part to be machined in Delrin. It measures about 1x.75x.25 -- fairly smooth geometry and described to us by a 5 axis shop as an easy part. The 3 axis shops say doable but need fixtures and indexer. There is a wide range in pricing for each part between shops and also a wide range in "programming" time pricing between shops. We are new to jobbing out machined plastic parts and are unfamiliar with your practices. Would anyone be so kind as to elaborate on why the discrepancies?

Is it not the case that the surf and mastercam programs or the like turnkey most of the programming set up time or is it as manually time consuming as we have been led to believe? Is programming time an area for negotiation and are these shops just testing our ability to sniff out a margin enhancer? We're getting from 2 hours to head scratching on programming times...

Thank you for your time in advance and look forward to your responses.

Ed.

[6inall]

Lots of possibilities why you are getting such a variation in pricing. Is it just the programing that is your concern or is it the overall cost of having the part(s) made?

Some information that I think would help would be:
A drawing or picture of the part(s).
Any critical tolerances.
Order quanity and expected delivery time.

Not sure who is giving you the higher prices, but.

The simplest reason I can think of is a 3 axis shop will have programming for fixturing AND machining with possibly several operations.

The 5 axis shops may say its an "easy" part, but the time it takes to setup those types of machines can be considerably more costly. Also, if the quantities are not high enough, they "could" be pricing like a short run or prototype.

Hope that helps some.

[marine1775]

One other thing you need to realize is that you could send that part to 5 different shops and you will more than likely get 5 different ways to machine that same part.

The key is to find shops that machine parts in the most efficient manner utilizing the latest technology whether it be machines, cutting tools, software, or workholding principles.

But on the other hand I have seen parts that by the time the job got to the programmer then to the machine and the operator load the program set and load the tools I could have had a finished part completed by using manual equipment.

If your part is a 1/4" x 3/4" x 1" and is plastic 2hrs seems high to me unless it is more than 1!!

I am a Tool and Die Maker and a CNC Programmer. I could take a look at your part and give you an estimate of how long it should take.

[howdyall]

Programming and overall cost are a concern. Quotes aren't amortizing the programming time and show no reduction in cost per part even in volume. They are treating each part as a one off price which is simply outrageous. It's not a mil-spec part We find 2 hours of programming time somewhat reasonable but still on the high end due to the size of the part. Will keep shopping.

Originally Posted by 6inall Lots of possibilities why you are getting such a variation in pricing. Is it just the programing that is your concern or is it the overall cost of having the part(s) made? Some information that I think would help would be: A drawing or picture of the part(s). Any critical tolerances. Order quanity and expected delivery time. Not sure who is giving you the higher prices, but. The simplest reason I can think of is a 3 axis shop will have programming for fixturing AND machining with possibly several operations. The 5 axis shops may say its an "easy" part, but the time it takes to setup those types of machines can be considerably more costly. Also, if the quantities are not high enough, they "could" be pricing like a short run or prototype. Hope that helps some.

[WallyL7]

Originally Posted by howdyall They are treating each part as a one off price which is simply outrageous.

LOL! It probably is a ONE OFF!!!!! Are you paying them up front for a high quantity of parts? If so, then they should give you a piece price with the programming/nre included in each piece...

but how do they know it isn't like every other customer out there telling them "This is going to take off. We just need the first one for free and you are going to be buried in quantities of these things"...

How about you post a drawing and some prices you've received. That would give us a better understanding of where this is coming from. For anybody to say that a small delrin part should be 2 hours is oblivious to complex geometry. Size has NO bearing on how long something may take.

[howdyall]

You know Tim -- That's the same attitude that sent your business over to China. Are 1000 pcs one off's? No. Are we paying up front? Could. Cash. Going to take off? No. Free? Grow up. Complex? No. Reread the original post. Post a drawing? Sorry no. We've done enough research on this part to know what it's worth. Just had a consultant programmer/machinist review the part. Not one aspersion you alluded to was confirmed.


And to close: Why don't you post a link to your website so we can make a note to steer clear in the future?

Originally Posted by WallyL7 LOL! It probably is a ONE OFF!!!!! Are you paying them up front for a high quantity of parts? If so, then they should give you a piece price with the programming/nre included in each piece... but how do they know it isn't like every other customer out there telling them "This is going to take off. We just need the first one for free and you are going to be buried in quantities of these things"... How about you post a drawing and some prices you've received. That would give us a better understanding of where this is coming from. For anybody to say that a small delrin part should be 2 hours is oblivious to complex geometry. Size has NO bearing on how long something may take.

[WallyL7]

Way too funny. You were the one that said the prices were all over the place. You didn't post how many you were quoting, so one would assume you wanted one piece.

If you can get one done in 2 hours, then do it! I would say that for a shop to want to do your 2 hour job, then they must need work...and work done in China previously is FLOODING shops here in the USA again.

Simple on a 5 axis but needs fixturing and indexers on 4 axis machines is not normally a 2 hour job. Just to set up your 5 axis program is an hour -

Why don't you post the part and pricing? We already told you we would give you some insight to pricing. We would help if you really wanted it. What are you afraid of? I'm just giving you a bit of the other side here.

As far as growing up...hell no. That'll never happen.

You purchasers just keep trying to get stuff for free (programming, setup, etc) and some of us are tired of "free"....

If you want to steer clear of my website and other truths, here it is CNCzone.com-Machinist Community Forums - Welcome Page


Seriously, if it is that easy, then why are you having so much trouble with it?

Originally Posted by howdyall Is it not the case that the surf and mastercam programs or the like turnkey most of the programming set up time or is it as manually time consuming as we have been led to believe?

This seems to state you really don't know what I (or others here) do and that we are just trying to take advantage of you. I can assure you, we are just trying to make money like yourself.


Read what I wrote again. I assumed you were quoting one part. If not, I apologize. Please clarify it. I also assumed you don't want to pay for NRE - since you said nobody is amortizing the programming/etc over the part run. So, did you get a quote for 1000 pcs WITH programming and setup on top (like a one time fee)? Tell them you don't want to pay for that and they will revise the quotes (I do for my customers)...

Believe me, if you don't already know this...Purchasers are really into having suppliers quote 1,10,100,1000,10000 pcs - then ordering 4 or 9 pcs and asking for the 1000pc price and no NRE...It is a bit of a game, Ed. Just trying to give you some of our end. No offense...

[fizzissist]

Another cute trick is to get quotes on 10, 100, 500, 1000, 5000.....You get the order for 5000, then they cancel after getting a partial delivery of 500,,,, and expect that paying you for 500 based on the 5000/pc price is ok.

I ran a short run production job shop, and can tell you that 5 shops will bid 5 different rates. So? Each shop is unique, and in the old days, it wasn't unusual to get in a job and farm it out to another shop....and they were farming stuff out to you. We did that a lot, and everybody made money. ... Now, things are a bit different.

The cost and margins of the material alone can mean getting the job or not.

As for the programming....if you want to take possession of the program/code, expect to pay more. And don't expect that it may even do you any good.

[miljnor]

It is a game with some customers Ed. He isn't trying to pull a fast one on you...just stating an unfortunate reality.

Information is always key when asking questions.

sometimes typed words have meanings applied to them that weren't intended.

[howdyall]

I know you guys need to make money. But we already caught one shop trying to farm out our job after we required them not to. They quote high on their overhead then sub out to a garage shop and take a fat margin. The Chinese have caught on and are doing the same. If all you want to do is consult and sub then close shop and go offshore like everyone else. We've been treated like Typhoid Mary because we don't have a high margin DOD or Medical application. If some would rather quote a buyer out the door than break a sweat by all means do so. I don't believe for one minute that work is coming back from China. Most of the Medical Suppliers have offices over there and don't intend to return. Compete gentlemen. No one is asking you to take a Chinese wage either. But keep taking your customer for stupid and you will suffer the consequences. If you can afford to take work you can afford to quote fair. The sweet heart contracts are long gone. Suck it up. Our streets aren't paved with gold. 5 ways to build a part and 9 ways to skin a sucker buyer. Is that the new mantra? If you don't build standards into your system, someone else will. Build trash for automobiles and watch the foreign competition dominate. Treat your buyer like an Asian whore and watch them jump your ship in droves. The animosity between buyer and seller in your industry is blatantly obvious. Your equipment keep your hands tied not your buyers. The Chinese are subsidized. All of them. Instead of trashing your buyers you should be lobbying for cuts. Detroit and Wall Street got theirs. If your representatives lend you a deaf ear, vote the bast@rds out. We're all rowing the same boat. U.S. R&D centers started in garage shops. When access to R&D is gone so will access to the freedoms we take for granted.


Stop pointing fingers at Americans trying their best to contract work here. We could RFQ this part to China in a mouse click but that will only happen when Tim grows up. Never. And sadly a growing majority of buyers are opting for Tim's counterpart on Mainland China. Reverse the trend or flip burgers. Easy choice.

Originally Posted by fizzissist Another cute trick is to get quotes on 10, 100, 500, 1000, 5000.....You get the order for 5000, then they cancel after getting a partial delivery of 500,,,, and expect that paying you for 500 based on the 5000/pc price is ok. I ran a short run production job shop, and can tell you that 5 shops will bid 5 different rates. So? Each shop is unique, and in the old days, it wasn't unusual to get in a job and farm it out to another shop....and they were farming stuff out to you. We did that a lot, and everybody made money. ... Now, things are a bit different. The cost and margins of the material alone can mean getting the job or not. As for the programming....if you want to take possession of the program/code, expect to pay more. And don't expect that it may even do you any good.

[WallyL7]

Originally Posted by howdyall I know you guys need to make money. But we already caught one shop trying to farm out our job after we required them not to. They quote high on their overhead then sub out to a garage shop and take a fat margin. The Chinese have caught on and are doing the same. If all you want to do is consult and sub then close shop and go offshore like everyone else. We've been treated like Typhoid Mary because we don't have a high margin DOD or Medical application. If some would rather quote a buyer out the door than break a sweat by all means do so. I don't believe for one minute that work is coming back from China. Most of the Medical Suppliers have offices over there and don't intend to return. Compete gentlemen. No one is asking you to take a Chinese wage either. But keep taking your customer for stupid and you will suffer the consequences. If you can afford to take work you can afford to quote fair. The sweet heart contracts are long gone. Suck it up. Our streets aren't paved with gold. 5 ways to build a part and 9 ways to skin a sucker buyer. Is that the new mantra? If you don't build standards into your system, someone else will. Build trash for automobiles and watch the foreign competition dominate. Treat your buyer like an Asian whore and watch them jump your ship in droves. The animosity between buyer and seller in your industry is blatantly obvious. Your equipment keep your hands tied not your buyers. The Chinese are subsidized. All of them. Instead of trashing your buyers you should be lobbying for cuts. Detroit and Wall Street got theirs. If your representatives lend you a deaf ear, vote the bast@rds out. We're all rowing the same boat. U.S. R&D centers started in garage shops. When access to R&D is gone so will access to the freedoms we take for granted. Stop pointing fingers at Americans trying their best to contract work here. We could RFQ this part to China in a mouse click but that will only happen when Tim grows up. Never. And sadly a growing majority of buyers are opting for Tim's counterpart on Mainland China. Reverse the trend or flip burgers. Easy choice.

Is your name SQUALE?!!!lol. You have a total of 4 posts on this site and already you are going to take us to school...You're killing me here.

Sadly, Ed - I mean Squale, you haven't provided anything we asked for so I won't even begin to reply to your drivel.

[howdyall]

Hold the burger on that Tim, but I'll take fries with that coke.

Originally Posted by WallyL7 Is your name SQUALE?!!!lol. You have a total of 4 posts on this site and already you are going to take us to school...You're killing me here. Sadly, Ed - I mean Squale, you haven't provided anything we asked for so I won't even begin to reply to your drivel.