I want to make this happen,

[antichip]

Hello,

I have been a long time member and a longer time lurker.
I have been collecting tools and equipment over the last five years and I think I am about ready to get started. I may use this as a build log for the buisness structure and such? IDK . But whatever this is I hope it will concrete it more for myself and maybee help me to resolve my short term goals and attitudes and expectations.

I have almost Zero start-up capital. No customer base. Alot of Ideas, no actual products.

I am 36 years old. I have a background in electronics, have been tearing into toys since I could. Computer repair and use, have been using them and repairing them since I was about 12. Mechanical background again tearing down toys as a kid and grandpa and great grand-pa were scrappers and farmers. Took classes in welding and mechanical drafting at 17. Electronics courses at 18. Machining courses at 20 while teaching computers. I have since worked doing alot of alot and have a considerable knowledge base. I think I also have a grasp of my limitations.

OK I do not really have money to do this, but I see no other choice right now. But what I do have should help. That is an uncanny ability to get stuff I need. I also have a decent equipment list.
14x60 gap bed lathe
8x30 harbor freight lathe(in cnc retrofit)
4x5 harbor freight lathe
X2 harbor freight mill
sherline cnc mill
rabbit 40 inch vinyl plotter
2 drill presses
Miller dial arc 250 ac/dc HF tig/stick w water cooler and gas bottles.
daytona 110 mig w gas or flux
horizontal vertical metal band-saw
one inch belt sander
heated 2.5 gallon ultra sonic cleaner
There is more, much more, hand tools and hundreds of endmills, very small to medium.

I was cleaning the new 14x60 lathe that I paid 10 dollars for and decided I could not do everything or plan or even prioritize my meager budget. So I asked a retired machinist friend if he would like to be shop manager for a few hours a day. Paid he understands as the shop makes money. He is in control, just tell me what to do. 30 or 40 years ago I would have placed an add looking for an apprentice to almost work in the shop for free for the cost of learning a true craft and trade, Not the way the world works anymore.

OK I have to go do something, I will post later a few of the other things I have going for us and maybe a few of the things I would like do.

I am sure I will get some feedback on this little ramble and I do look forward to it.

[antichip]

I home I do not get scolded for double posting.

Some things I do have going for me,

Tools, I do have a decent amount in tools and tooling.
Strong support structure and I think a good starting team
Income is not depended on
I do have some small jobs here and there, almost totally unrelated to machining or fabrication. I don't mind repairing computers, it's there owners I can't stand.
I have some items I can sell not related that can help with capital, but very little. ELO touch screens and such.
I am a great self starter
excellent sales, EVERYTHING is a sale, start using that attitude and you will be amazed how easy it becomes.


Some of the things going against me

Half outdoor shop, Non insulated or conditioned other half
non commercial location, but I am AG
Not a self finisher
poor prioritized time and budget
Lack of organizational follow through. I will organize or have a set plan too, but lack of follow through.
I'v never been able to force myself to keep a notebook and pen on me for ideas and such, as a result many get lost.


State of equipment

I also own a bridgeport j head mill. I traded the guy some of my toys for it sight unseen. I did not get over to get it right away, I have not been able to get ahold of him.

14x40 lathe is a current grizzley model number 4016. It is in fair to geed shape and will be excellent when I am done. I do not have a ton of lathe tooling but I do have some. HSS, carbide, and index-able. I have been cleaning it the last few days and might wire it up this afternoon. It looked so bad when I got it, sitting under a rubber tarp for years outside in Florida. I am going to lap everything together to make it near perfect. Only thing I don't like is the lack of foot brake.

x2 harbor freight mill is in good working condtion

9x20 harbor freight lathe is 1/4 way through cnc, I have a baldor 3 phase on it and made a head index positioning encoder. mounted stepper for x leadscrew.

4x5 lathe is in proper working order x mounts were fashioned for steppers and x lead screws were adapted for ball bearing. If this little guy gets cnc'd I may keep it but I would rather use 5c collets in the big guy for small work.

sherline cnc mill has some issues. The drill press arbor is stuck in the spindle. BAD. So I am getting the big lathe going so I chuck up the spindle and cut it out. Or drill through and see if it relieves pressure. One of the axis was seized up. The motor rotor was actually rusted up, cleaned it and got it going. One axis was burnt up(guess witch one) I found 2 amp bi polar drivers for 12 dollars. it seems to work good, very small, I will have to build a mount and heat sink to use the full 2 amps. I really want this machine up and running.

Off to clean or something

[fizzissist]

Dude!
You need to get a hobby, one that needs a machine shop for support. Like racing something.

Have fun with your hobby, learn to set up and run your shop as you fix your hobby, meet fellow racers and find a product. Or a job you can do in your shop.

You're 90% further along than most hobbyist guys here with that level of equipment. You don't need advice, you just need to start doin'!!

[Walky]

We're on the same boat. I'm starting my cnc one-man business (design/construction/sale of hobby machines plus engraving/sign/etc custom cnc services) with only my home-made 85x64cm CNC router, a horrible chinese bench drill, some bits, the usual hand tools and a lot of ideas (might get a mini lathe soon, maybe).

You have more machines than most of the small machining centers I know locally, that's a huge headstart. I know CNC is very different in the USA as compared to my country, so we can't compare side to side, but...hell, do you like this job? if you do... just go ahead and follow your dream. If I can do it, you sure can! I loved CNC since I discovered a few years ago and I decided I can't work on anything but this, I just need to build stuff! My whole machine-building project started as a hobby, so fizzissist has a point there. Enjoying is the most important thing of it all, since you only live once!

Just an idea: Create a website and start writing ideas, products, services and organizing them without actually publishing the site yet (you can do it offline meanwhile); doing the above has helped me a lot to get focused and to get the facts right. Sometimes I just open my website draft, look at my potential "services" menu and start thinking "will I really end up doing this?", "will I be able to focus on this AND this other thing"?, and then I start erasing stuff and adding new ideas.


Or even simpler! (what I did before starting heavy-work on my website, which is still on construction):

I started by just making a simple text file and putting it on Windows' desktop (easily accesible), and every now and then I just open it and start writing any ideas about "things to do with cnc", regardless of how unlikely some may sound, and then I start deleting some and getting new ideas from others (e.g.: one product turns into three related products), writing notes near some ideas, etc. This was extremely useful to get a hold of many of the ideas that are usually forgotten before writing them.

If my cnc project fails, I'll run to this topic and tell you to forget everything I said so you don't screw up too!. Just kidding


Good luck!

[antichip]

My hobby is doing stuff to stuff, no matter what the hobby. So Like I am into airsoft, so I used to make crazy units, carbon wrapped 650 fps, And there is the model trains. Umm radio controlled stuff, Man the list goes on, one thing they all have in common is that I get to tear into things and make them better either mechanically or electrically.
I would like to get the kid into Jr drag or racing 4 wheelers, MONEY.

So you build cnc machines or do retro-fits to existing machines?

I considered building laser machines here in the US and importing just the tubes.

One of my biggest considerations is how to make the new web and internet work for me like I know it can. I have done a couple of websites using the joomla content management system, very nice and powerful. I still have my one domain name registered.

Got the welder and lathe almost wired in. I'll get that finished up this evening. Then it will be back to cleaning and some straightening up. Pull the spindle off the Sherline and chuck it up so I can cut out the arbor. It will be the first job on the new lathe.

Yes I will sit down with the manager tomorrow and start making a list of some of the things I would like to do, that can come to mind. The products and services will be an ongoing thing obviously because as stated I don't do alot of note taking. He is alot more conservative than I am. I tend to jump around alot I hope he can help focus my energy and direction and start getting something done one piece at a time instead of jumping around.

I may have come across an opportunity today as-well that has near unlimited potential, but we will see how the next few weeks will go.

Alright enough for this evening I have to go do something.

[antichip]

Got the lathe wired up. I will need to put more money in it than I thought, but not alot. The gears for the feed gearbox are not there. metric or standard, they are about 100 each new. I need a tool post, DUH. I am thinking of the work I wold have done at other shops with this sized lathe and I am wondering how I can add a foot brake to this beast.
The apron gearbox was dry. The compound slid gib is cracked in half. Most of the oil ports are totally gunked up. The further I tear it down the more I want to tear it down.

We will see where today goes.

[wildwestpat]

As a start up business you need a plan of what you want to make happen. Collecting machines that are not in usable condition is a mega distraction unless the aim is to sell them on. That lathe might have been off loaded on to you as a bargain but may cost you to dispose of it as scrap.

That lathe sounds as if it will take a lot of work and parts to get it going again. Yes you could use it for a lot of things with no compound and a turret tool holder is common on production machines. However ask your self just how did the compound body get bust and what else got bent or cracked.

To build a viable business plan you need amongst other things - customers or potential market for your widget - materials - premises and insurance. Things get tough once you start doing things for profit as there are rules and regulations galore once you start to use paid labour to operate your machines.

Sorry to rain on your plan but cash flow is what makes a start up possible. _ regards - Pat

[antichip]

Good morning pat, and everyone else,

I do have a "plan"

To start making gadgets and gizmos and do-dads for myself and others at one of the regions best equipped fab shops.

Yes to be fair the machines that are not running is currently my biggest concern and distraction. That is why I have been spending the last week working in the shop on "shop stuff". Electrical wiring, machine work and general cleaning and organization.

To be fair only the sherline cnc mill and the large lathe came in non usable form, the 9x20 lathe is a work in progress(LONG). The threading and feed gears for the big lathe won't be an immediate concern. I'll get a quick change tool post right away for 140 dollars. The gib was broken or cracked by being way over tightened. I think I may and re-weld it(tig) and if that don't work I'll make one. So I just want this to be clear, for 400 total US Dollars I will have a 3000 dollar machine with quick change. No way I can't get that money back out if I needed too. A couple of my extra dollars does come from selling repaired items I bought broke.

There are quite a few more things I can do zoned ag here than what alot of non commercial residences are allowed.

I do not have large sums of working cash. I do make some money just being me, without the support of the shop. I have one large job that when completed will fund most of these smaller going ons up above, and pay for the expensive bits for the next machine. I am also going to start selling off the extras I'v gotten and don't want. From touch screens to line isolation transformers and the like. Not a ton but a few to help boost the meager budget. So with-in a month or so I would like all of my equipment up to standards in full operational condition. At this time I will start looking for monies, using what I have already acquired or built as my end. My first job at a machine shop was in a basement for cash. not saying it was right, it just was.

It is certainly not raining in florida, looks to be very sunny this morning.

I really do appreciate your time commenting. Please keep in mind that I could type on in length for days on the details and so on. The different things I think of , issues, solutions, ideas and set-backs.

[harryn]

Hi, consider in general what your strengths are, and your weak areas. For many people, this is their inability to consider forming a team, which ultimately restricts what they can achieve.

My suggestion is to consider that a typical successful business will need 5 people to make it. You can argue with the exact number or exactly what their job functions are, but it is very close to true. In addition to the work that needs to be done, it also takes the energy of 5 people to stick through it all.

My clients get the same advice
a) Incorporate - easy in Florida.
- A real C corp, not less.
- Authorize 1 million shares, issue them at $ 1 / share
- Shares to go out for cash, work, or equipment purchases (from you or others)

b) Write down What each person is going to do
- Bullet point job description for each job
- Sometimes, each person will have 3 jobs - that's life
- Agree to the pay rate for that job description
- Everyone in the agreement signs off

c) Buy out a business
- Try to buy out an existing shop from a retiring owner
- If possible, use a mix of stock and cash to buy it

d) Valuations
- Existing shop value
- Very solid, profitable, iso 900 procedures in place - around 1 x 1 years revenue value max, including assets
- General valuation of a business = (10x 1 year profit ) + (assets) - (debt obligations)
- Assets = used production equipment is 10% of new value, computers are more or less of no value
- Make sure the workers you want come with the business - offer them some stock, or ability to buy some stock to stay on
- Customer value = this is harder to judge, but in general it comes with the business valuation of profitability


Most important - watch for scams. My son lives in FL, and I can honestly say I have never seen a state more full of scammers in my life. Bernie Madoff was not an exception, he was the rule when it comes to business people I have met in FL.

Just my 2 cents.

Good luck,

Harry

[harryn]

Hi, it is a good time to consider if your goal is to make hobby size parts / projects or commercial size parts.

I took some time to look up the items you list in your assets. Don't take this the wrong way, but those are all home hobby level items, not professional tools. What this means, is that while in theory they can make decent items, they are going to be slow at doing it, since they can only really make light cuts.

Please also consider whether some of those tools are "scrap" vs "used", in particular that lathe which is missing all of the gears.

Used tools can be great - if they are in nearly ready to go working order and are being sold for owner financial reasons. The tools you are accumulating are being sold cheaply because they have technical problems. Put your money and time into items you buy with very few technical problems, in spite of your ability to fix them.

[Walky]

Originally Posted by antichip So you build cnc machines or do retro-fits to existing machines?

Hello again, sorry for taking so long to answer.

My project is to build hobby level cnc machines with engineering plastic bodies (think Lumenlab Micro, but with my own, quite different design). Contrary to the USA, in my country there's absolutely no hobby cnc scene. My dream is to make CNC affordable and known in my country, and to show that it can become a hobby tool instead of the usual 6K+ machines; my project is to make a living out of it (along with constant cutting-engraving services like signmaking and stuff like that). I hope to have my first serious production prototype in about a month. This puts me in a situation that's quite the opposite than the one on the USA: I have practically no competition, but at the same time I carry on my shoulders the weight that my product is by no means a common one, nor a cheap one (even though I've managed to keep prices very low). Another problem is that people earn a lot less here than in the USA, but at the same time it seems people are willing to try things; in fact, last year I sold a medium MDF machine I built at about 3K, so that gives me some hope about the future of CNC locally. I'll take some pictures of my workshop today (quite ugly, not even painted, but contains all of my tools), if you're curious.

I'm using Joomla too, it's very nice. My last contact with website making was about 13 years ago, so I only had Frontpage 98 on my mind; when I started this project I found out things are not as simple as before, so after some days trying to figure out all this endless CSS and PHP stuff I decided to just go with Joomla (which would probably make a safer website, too) instead of losing valuable time learning web design from zero just to make one website.



harryn

Sadly I can't say team-making has worked for me ; in fact, every single time I've proposed teaming with someone they just dissapeared after agreeing to make something. Might just be chilean idiosincracy (values seems to be a little hard to find nowadays)

I just gave up trying to make a team and decided to try to go on my own, and I've advanced more this way than I have in any previous project. I hope I can eventually make an association, ideally regarding sales (I'm a terrible salesman, too honest and prudent I think, so I'm even capable of screwing up my own sales without noticing).

[antichip]

The lathe is missing 2 gears. Not all.

Alright I found a fully orerational machine shop. EVERYTHING. 20+ year buisness
2 vms
1 hass vf3
1 mori sieki forgot model, mid sized
mori sl 25 turning center
4 or m large manual mills including a harding seacond op
and a bridgeport with like every gear pithch
couple others
5 full sized knee mills Stock
everything is 1 owner in very nice shape.
OK

100000 for the machine shop, everything.
200000 for the buisness

He keeps the bills paid. He only sells his product, and does not do contracts or bids. His guy work 3 days a week.

I could prolly offer him 125, and keep him on to sell his product to pay him. The shop could then start working at working.
In his industry he is "The man" they don't call his company they call him.

I can not come up with this cash.

I did find a buyer and arrange employment though. Not my ideal outcome.

I hope this is not the end to this thread.