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Thread: Want to buy the RIGHT cnc plasma machine

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    Default Want to buy the RIGHT cnc plasma machine

    Just started looking into machines and have learned a lot of really great features. I have received 3 quotes so far but everyone has a different prospective on the right machine for the job. I am looking to only plasma cut with the machine. I do believe the height comp. is very important along with good software. The technology is growing at such a fast rate I think I will stay with the idea of a new vs used machine. I have read about the stepper vs servo motor and that is one thing i am unsure of. I have worked in the transfer press and robotic field for years and due understand the mechanics of both but I am unsure in this application which is the right one. I want to cut 1/2 inch thick at times also I have quite an interest in cutting 20 gauge with accuracy. I am not a steel fab shop I am only one person in my shop and do not plan to have orders of more than 500 -1000 pcs at on time. I also with do one off work that I am more interested in. Sorry about the rambling just trying to give enough info to make the right decision. This is a lot of money and I do not want to be sorry later. Thanks.

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    Sorry to inform you ,but cutting 20 gauge with accuracy with plasma is not going to happen.First of all there is nothing accurate about plasma cutting.If you want accuracy you need a laser or a waterjet.20 Gauge is going to warp real bad unless it is simple shapes.You will need to have a water bed also with the water touching the material to help stop some warpage.CNC plasma is nice to have,but by no means is it some miracle cutting process.



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    One other thing do not expect cnc plasma to cut small accurate holes.1/2 and above size holes is about the best you will get that looks anything round.So if you want to do holes you may want to think about getting some type of metal punch(hand punch,c framed punch or iron worker machine) or spend time drilling.In my opinion drilling takes way to much time and energy.I am kinda in that situation.Dying for a 50 ton ironworker machine.Just trying to give you some info,cause the cnc plasma is not a do all machine.You need to avoid mistakes,especially when you quote a job.Also too those plasma cut parts may need edge cleanup too.You can get some dross free cuts,but anytime there is a lot of direction changes in the cut you will get dross.Do not forget plasma cutting is an extremely dirty cutting process.You need to have a downdraft table or a water table.If you want to cut a 1000 pieces wait until you see the mess.Plasma dust gets everywhere and it is nasty stuff,very unhealthy,do not breathe.I just cut 585 pieces the other day on my table with a water bed and let me tell you it is nasty.There is more money in custom work than cutting repetitve parts.Also less maintenance and wear and tear on your machine.



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    Check out www.dynatorch.com , i have a 1250 Hypertherm with mine and it does a nice job, i bought their air handler but have also connected up my own water spraying system with it, my shop/garage is small and with the combo air/water i hardly have any dust or smoke when cutting, also the water keeps the metal sheets from warping when im cutting, Dynatorch just came out with a new gizmo called DASH... its a digital height sensor so your torch doesnt touch the sheet when it goes down to peirce, its on my wish list rite now as i mainly cut 16 gauge and it seems lately my supplier is supplying warped sheets.

    EDD



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    I highly suggest you get some cut samples done of stuff you think you might be doing before you write the check.The only reason I say this is because a lot of people have greater expectations than what cnc plasma actually is.Tolerance is .010 to .020 at very best depending on consumables and could be worse.It does not matter how accurate the table is.You are cutting with a 20,000 degree flame that is hungry for metal(ground).I go on a lot of offroad web forums and have come across people who got rid of their plasma tables because they got tired of having bevel on the edges of their parts,cleanup time,unround holes and part tolerances.They either bought a laser,waterjet or just outsourced their cutting needs.Plasma is good for cutting artsy stuff though which is what I mostly do.Just make sure this is what you want because once you buy that machine,if you decide to sell down a couple of months down the road you will lose.



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    By the way check out TRACKER CUTTING SYSTEMS they just revamped their machines and they look sweet.I personally do not own a TRACKER,but anyone whom I have come across have never had any complaints with machines or customer support and they have been around a long time.



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    There are a lot of different types of plasma cutting systems available today. Most of the plasma systems that are talked about on this site are air plasma's that were designed primarily for hand held cutting applications. These are relatively low cost plasmas using compressed air.....and many of these are mounted on CNC machines. Some manufacturers of air plasma have designed special consumables...such as Hypertherm's Fine Cut consumables that coupled to a good motion control and a good torch height control can cut thin materials at very high speeds and with accuracy in the plus or minus .010" range....with no warpage to the material. Warpage is usually caused (in plasma cutting applications) when the torch to work distance is incorrect, or the cut speed is too slow.

    Plasma manufacturers also produce high end plasma systems such as Hypertherm's HyPerformance plasma. These plasma systems can cost 10x the price of an air plasma...and use different plasma gases such as oxygen for cutting steel, F5 (5% hydrogen, 95%nitrogen) for cutting stainless...as well as many other gas combinations to improve cut quality and cut edge metalurgy. When a HyPerformance plasma is married to an x-y cutting machine with superior acceleration and excellent accuracy...then very small holes and fine features can be cut. Small holes are not made by the plasma system alone...but through good part programming, proper torch to work distance, proper cut speed and accurate motion. If you cannot get round holes with a cnc plasma machine...all of these factors must be accounted for!

    Hypertherm's new HyPerformance system...the HPR400xl can cut gauge materials with high precision at 30 Amps output....and can cut 3" carbon steel (can pierce up to 2") with ease.....and produces cut part accuracies that are acceptable for most applications at a much lower cost as compared to laser and water jet systems. Of course laser and water jets (and oxy-fuel) have their advantages as well....but plasma is typically the lowest operating cost with the highest productivity on most materials.

    Jim Colt



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    What Jim Said!

    "CNC Plasma Machine" is a big ocean.

    What size of machine are you looking at or price range.

    I just happen to know where you can get one that does all of the things Jim says it will, and most of the stuff the other guy said it won't!

    I hate deburring.....
    Lets go (insert favorite hobby here)


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    I simply was stating the facts of the machines in the $10,000 to $30,000 dollar range, which is what most people here are using or looking to purchase.Sure we could probably get awsome results with a machine costing $100,000 plus.It is like anything you get what you pay for.



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    Disconnected, I don't think Jim was slamming you, he was was just pointing out that decent cuts can be achieved with a little time and experience. On a side note the new HPR400 is awesome, but yes more expensive, but compared to jet or laser, hands down. We are getting ready to put these on our new systems.

    Chip Coale


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    I didn't fell like Jim was slamming me.I respect the guy,especially having him share his knowledge.I appreciate it.I just wanted boros40 to know what he was getting into with the low end plasma systems.Which he was probably looking into.Some people think your going to get damn near machine quality,close tolerance pieces with a low end plasma.I just wanted respond when he wrote that he wanted to cut 20 gauge with accuracy.



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    I think it is important for everyone to know that there is another whole world of plasma cutting technology and capability out there...not just air plasma systems! Air plasmas certainly have there place...they produce fast, good quality cuts on a lot of materials...and are reasonably proced for many applications. Most of the posts on these sites refer to air plasma....and there are many users that have not seen or maybe are not aware that plasma cutting technology goes way beyond these lower cost systems for industrial applications!

    I have read a lot of posts that compare air plasma cut quality to industrial lasers and water jet machines.....when they should be comparing this type of equipment to industrial high definition class plasma! It's more of an apples to apples comparision and we all can learn from it! Many users of homebuilt cnc machines will someday grow their hobbies into larger businesses....and knowing where to look for the proper equipment that will help them be competitive in the marketplace will be beneficial.

    Jim Colt



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    Well this is a good point.

    A question to ask is what is it he is cutting or wanting to cut? What is meant by accurate? My table is way better than free hand. So it is your point of reference.

    I did this homework a few years back. Take a look at my Dynatorch threads and you will see a detailed process of what is involved. You can put a machine together on the low end of your dollars, but you will be cuttin and grinding for a while.

    My two questions were.

    Do I want to cut steel? Or do I want to build a machine, then cut steel?

    At the time, with the knowledge I had I decided cutting steel was my goal, not designing and building a machine.

    I wanted to cut steel and all my research took me to the guys at dynatorch.

    I took a long time to put my table in action, but the reality is the system can go from crate to cut in a fews days if you stay at it.

    Just remember other costs (See my posts) are there you don't think about. Air, Power, Computer etc...etc...

    Don't let some of the plasma vendors out there convince you they have a low end turn key system for 5K. So READ A LOT. The support a company gives has a ton of value in the costs so keep that in mind whatever you do.

    I love my DT system and the support Walt, Leon and the guys give. You will be happy if you go with them. They will make sure of that.

    I am building a wood router at the moment, that can be adapted easily to CNC Plasma. Google MechMate and take a look. Cool stuff great knowledge base and may be more in line with the second question I asked.

    Here is a Trophy I made using my DT. The state is cut out of 16 gauge steel. Very fine cuts and I was using a 40 amp tip on a TD Cutmaster 151. So what will you be wanting to cut?

    Mike

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Want to buy the RIGHT cnc plasma machine-alabama-usa-wrestling-trophy-jpg  
    MetalHead - http://www.mechmate.com


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    Dynatorch makes great machines and at reasonable prices. They had two machines at the Fabtech show a couple of months ago in LasVegas...one had a High Definition class plasma and the other had an air plasma mounted. There was a big difference in both performance and price between the two!

    Jim Colt



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    thanks everyone for the replies, I have seen the Tracker system at a trade show and they were cutting some parts with great detail. It was an air hand held torch with fine consumables. That was accurate enough for what I want. I do not make quick buying decisions on the first look. I have been looking at sites and other equipment and there are some other nice machines out there. I understand .01-.02 accuracy is what to expect because your cutting with arc and not a cutter. I also understand you get what you pay for to a point. You also can buy a lot of advertising hype if your not careful. I noticed that the tracker system has stepper motors and some of the other machines have servo motors. As I have said I understand both but what is necessary for a plasma table. My thoughts are the steppers are accurate enough for this application. Also the cost of repair I would thing would be cheaper. Some of the other companies offer the servo setup for 2000-3000 more. Even with that option they come in less expensive than the Tracker.
    after reading all of your post I have come down to 2 questions for now. Steeper or servo? and a better explanation of hand vs machine plasma machines. I have been pretty sold on the hyper therm brand from what i have read. I have also seen the Tracker use a hand plasma machine and cut vary well. Thanks again people for all of the replies.



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    Steppers and servos can both be very accurate. Steppers and their associated drives...normally track distance by keeping track of the number of "steps" the motor takes in it's path....each step is an accurate, known distance. As long as their are no hard collisions...which can cause the stepper drive to think it is at a certain position...but the motor may have missed a couple of steps on the way...then everything remains very accurate. In a perfect world....plasma cutting (of the mechanized variety) is a non contact process...so the steppers will follow the programmed cut path accurately...and will not miss any steps.

    Servo drives (and there are a lot of different varieties...and different methods of control) use a separate encoder to accurately track position...the encoder measures off distance by providing the drive with x number of counts per revolution.....the higher number of counts, the more accurate the measurement. If the system bumps into something.....then the encoder stops measuring....and once the obstruction is moved the encoder will measure the path of the drive motor very accurately. Servo drives are generally a bit more expensive and have more complicated electronics as compared to steppers....but in many cases prove to be more accurate under tough conditions.

    On an entry level or "hobby" class cnc plasma machine....you likely will not see any differences in cut part accuracy.....although you may experience smoother cut edges with a servo drive system as the steppers (many, not all) tend to "cog"...or have a bit of roughness in the motion that will show up in a plasma cut part. This is my experience...although I'm sure others will disagree on some of my points!

    On the question of hand vs machine plasmas....

    1. Many air plasma systems were designed primarily for hand cutting.....as an example, Hypertherm Powermax45, Powermax1000, 1250 and 1650 were designed with 95% of their use as hand torches. Each of these systems has an available machine torch, and electrical connections to make them easy to interface to a cnc machine. Whats the difference between the hand torch and the machine torch? One is designed to ergonomically fit in a human hand (although many cnc machine manufacturers offer brackets to hold a hand torch)....and the other has a straight barrel of 1-3/4" diameter (same as a mechanized oxy-fuel torch) designed for mounting permanently on a machine. Performance wise the torches are identical...same duty cycle, same power levels....you can use the same consumables in each torch....although there are specialty parts that improve either hand or machine processes.

    2. Then there is the product line that is designed for industrial, 3 shift a day, highly productive applications....again I will use Hypertherm systems as an example. Hypertherm makes an HT2000, HSD130, HPR130, 260 and 400 as well as other systems that can cut at up to 760 Amps. None of these systems are offered with hand torches....all of the torches are 2" diameter, liquid cooled torches with microprocessor controlled gas delivery systems.....and they have sophisticated cnc interfaces that can serially link to an industrial cnc control....so that all plasma functionallity can be optimized to improve cut quality, productivity, consumable life. These systems can use many different gas combinations that can improve cut quality, cut edge metalurgy, cut speeds, etc.

    3. Costs. A 100 Amp air plasma system with a machine torch (major brand such as Hypertherm) will sell for approx $5500. A 130 Amp (Hypertherm HPR130) high definition class plasma will sell for approx. $31,000. In a production environment that uses the plasma for 2 or more shifts per day will find that the HPR130 is far less expensive to operate (as compared to a 100 Amp air plasma) due the higher throughput (more parts cut per shift), longer consumable life (as much as 10x longer life) and better cut quality(less grinding and rework and other secondary operations).

    Consequently...someone that is using the plasma sporadically (1 or 2 times a day)....likely will find the air plasma system more cost effective.

    Hope this helps a bit.

    Jim Colt



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