Beginner in CNC trying to decide on number of axes

[A_Camera]

Based on your experience, what would you do?

Based on my experience, if I´d decide for buying a machine it would be the X6 USB. I'd rip out the USB motion controller and would replace it with the UC300ETH I am using today.... but I am an engineer and could easily fix this operation.

Beware that this machine, and every other one, needs some sort of driver. You can not use it with UCCNC because there is no support for it, so you must modify it for UCCNC, but probably also for Linux. I don't know if they deliver with any drivers at all, but probably only Mach3.

On a second thought, if I would plan on buying I'd contact them and ask them for delivery without the control box and the spindle, just steppers and the frame.

[doc7]

Based on my experience, if I´d decide for buying a machine it would be the X6 USB. I'd rip out the USB motion controller and would replace it with the UC300ETH I am using today.... but I am an engineer and could easily fix this operation.

Beware that this machine, and every other one, needs some sort of driver. You can not use it with UCCNC because there is no support for it, so you must modify it for UCCNC, but probably also for Linux. I don't know if they deliver with any drivers at all, but probably only Mach3.

On a second thought, if I would plan on buying I'd contact them and ask them for delivery without the control box and the spindle, just steppers and the frame.

This doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

Why would you skip on the spindle and what would you replace it with? I was under the impression that this is a fairly good spindle.

Also, if I were to get the motors and frame only what would be the process of making it operational, using CNDdrive parts?

[A_Camera]

This doesn't sound like a bad idea at all.

Why would you skip on the spindle and what would you replace it with? I was under the impression that this is a fairly good spindle.

...because I already have one. But if I did not have one I'd look at the specs of the spindle and maybe I'd buy the one from Omio. Anyway, the VFD is not something I'd be interested in and would go for a quality one. I use Modbus and I generally dislike the all in one box type of solution. I am also not interested of the power supply since I have a better one, so all in all, I would prefer to exclude the whole electronic box. But that's just me, I can't really say how you should do.

Also, if I were to get the motors and frame only what would be the process of making it operational, using CNDdrive parts?

It is a steep uphill if you don't have enough electrical engineering knowledge. Personally, I think that for you it would be the best to buy a complete kit with everything included and start off with Mach3. Mach3, as old as it may be, is very good and capable of doing everything you want to do.

[doc7]

I think I would do wise to trust a more knowledgeable bloke. Until a better option comes along, which I kinda doubt, I'll go for the full X6 2200 USB.

For the sake of it, could you outline the differences between Mach3 and UCCNC. This ought to give me a better perspective of it all.

Also, what is it that you look for in a good spindle?

[ger21]

So if I get an Omio and want to use anything different than Mach3 the board is the component I will have to swap?

That depends on the hardware they are using. If it's an all in one motion controller/breakout board, then you'll need to replace the motion controller + breakout board. If they are separate, you may be able to use some of what they have.




Differences between Mach3 and UCCNC.
At first glance, not a lot.

UCCNC is loosely based on Mach3, so it feels very similar, and works similarly in a lot of ways.

The big difference? Mach3 was developed, over a number of years, by one person. It was really the only program of it's kind, so people flocked to it. As features were requested, more and more features were added.
The problem, is that adding one feature, would frequently cause issues with another feature, because so many things interacted with each other. The end result, is that there are a lot of minor bugs in mach3, that weren't able to be fixed, without breaking other features.
To be fair, 99% of Mach3 users never run into any of these bugs.
About 5-7 years ago, the original Mach3 developer sold Mach3 to Artsoft, the current developers. They immediately started working on Mach3's replacement, Mach4. They've been working on it for over 5 years now, and imo, it's still quite a long ways away from being a complete product.
And when they started working on Mach4, all development of Mach3 stopped. So basically, Mach3 is an unsupported product.

UCCNC, on the other hand, is actively being developed by a team of developers. CNC Drive also develops there own hardware and software, so there are never any issues between the hardware and software, like you often see with Mach3/Mach4, where the software works with hardware developed by 3rd parties.

Any bugs found in UCCNC are quickly fixed by the developers, often in a day or two.

The biggest benefit of UCCNC, is the improved trajectory planner. This allows you to cut faster, with more accurate parts.

There are some features that Mach3 has, that have yet to be implemented in UCCNC. Most notable, are 4th axis toolpath display, and rotary axis feedrate compensation. These should be added at some point. You can still use a 4th axis in UCCNC, but the toolpath will not display properly, and you may have to do a little more work to get the feedrates where you want them.

[ger21]

Also, what is it that you look for in a good spindle?

Cheap.

Most chinese spindles are similarly priced, and quality is similar.
You can buy similar spindles from importers that inspect and warranty them, at twice the price.

I bought two of the cheapest 2.2Kw spindles I found on Ebay, and while the fit and finish is marginal, I'm perfectly happy with their performance.

If you ewant to move up to a higher quality, non chinese spindle, the price goes up by a factor of 5-10 times.

[doc7]

Thanks a lot for the input.

I was browsing online for accessories that go with routers. More specifically vices and cutting bits. The X6 comes with a 6mm and a 3.175 collet.

What should I know when it comes to vices and cutting bits?

[ger21]

Most people don't use vises with routers, so I can't help you with that.

By bits as you need them, for the application. Don't by "starter sets", where you end up with bit's that you'll never use.

[doc7]

If people don't use vices how do they secure whatever they're machining to the table?

[ger21]

It's kind of hard to put large sheets of wood in vises.

People use all types of different methods for holding their work.

Clamps that bolt into t tracks.
clamps that bolt in to threaded inserts in the table.
Cam clamps that hold parts by their edges.
Screwing parts down into a spoilboard.
Vacuum hold down.

[handlewanker]

Er....I beg to differ on the extra height of the X6 Z axis height being an advantage.......the higher the top the longer the drop, so to say.......this means when the Z axis slide is down to the table it has a huge unsupported hang down length and as the cutter is digging into the material it has more leverage against the unsupported down length.

In one picture of the side view of the X6 in the link, the spindle body is right down in it's housing and this is not a good idea.........if the spindle body is raised in it's housing to reduce the stick out length you won't get near the table for sheet material etc.....it's not practical to keep moving the spindle up and down in the housing......it might be, but I don't think so.

This has always been a problem with gantry routers where the compromise for rigidity is the amount of height you can get under the gantry.

The solution as I see it is to have a long aspect ratio saddle slide on the Z axis as you can go longer and upwards with the Z and this will support the Z axis slide when it's right down near the table.
Ian.


.

[doc7]

The solution as I see it is to have a long aspect ratio saddle slide on the Z axis as you can go longer and upwards with the Z and this will support the Z axis slide when it's right down near the table.
Ian.

.

Could you link a picture to that as I find it interesting but have no idea what it is.

[A_Camera]

Thanks a lot for the input.

I was browsing online for accessories that go with routers. More specifically vices and cutting bits. The X6 comes with a 6mm and a 3.175 collet.

What should I know when it comes to vices and cutting bits?

I have one of these:

https://www.sorotec.de/shop/CNC-Acce...jaws-BG73.html

Worth every penny. They are shipping to UK as well, just register and order whatever you like. Very nice people and excellent service. Accurate vice is very important in my opinion, once squared it is easy to repeat the work until you remove it from the table, after that it needs to be squared again.

I don't know which sort of cutters you plan to use, I am trying to buy as many as possible with 6mm shaft because those have very good rigidity. I don't use anything larger than 6mm so that's optimal for me. Small cutters come almost always with 1/8" shafts and even engraving V-bits. Basically my needs are a bunch of 6mm and 1/8" collets and bits. I have a large number of those and also many collet nuts since I have to change tools often, I found this the best solution for me.

[A_Camera]

It's kind of hard to put large sheets of wood in vises.

People use all types of different methods for holding their work.

Clamps that bolt into t tracks.
clamps that bolt in to threaded inserts in the table.
Cam clamps that hold parts by their edges.
Screwing parts down into a spoilboard.
Vacuum hold down.

In my opinion the vice is the most important tool, but we all use our machines differently. However, milling 3D must be extremely difficult without a good vice.

[A_Camera]

Er....I beg to differ on the extra height of the X6 Z axis height being an advantage.......

Well, I agree with you about the "I beg to differ" part. In my opinion Z clearance is very important otherwise you are stuck to flat milling and engraving without proper fixture/vice clearance.

It is a bless not to have to worry about the vice, knowing I can use the longest tool without issue and still having clearance. In fact, in my opinion the 140mm Z clearance of the X6 is just the minimum I'd call it usable. The more Z clearance the better, but of course, if it results in a flexing flimsy Z then it is useless.

[ger21]

However, milling 3D must be extremely difficult without a good vice.

3D covers a lot of different areas. As I said, there are a ton of different ways to hold your work. The type of work you're doing has a lot do with how you hold it. for what I do, I don't have any use for a vise.

[handlewanker]

Hi, I wouldn't fail the X6 just because it has the rather high Z axis......the people who make it must know if this is practical and would have taken steps to rectify that mistake if it proved to be a problem.

My opinion is if you want to have lots of clearance under the gantry for whatever........the high Z axis design must be capable of making it happen.......I looked at it with the viewpoint of leverage and if you hang something out in the air it must be supported further back in the mounting and this can only be achieved by a longer slide etc.

Simply. it's cantilevering forces that need to be reduced.......the Z axis saddle slide bearings must be placed further apart lengthways than wider apart across the saddle to do this........it's called aspect ratio.

There is a good reason, with the Bridgeport mill, why the manufacturers state that milling must be done with the quill in the fully up position.........in the X6 design, the slide hangs all the way down when the cutter is down on the deck......if it works.......good.

However, overall the design features of the X6 appear to have well designed extrusions that go together to form a neat machine......extrusion dies to make complicated extrusion shapes are not cheap and only volume selling can get the price down.

Anything that is bolted together, especially when you have right angle to be firmly attached has to have the interfaces perfect or you'll get flexing. ........price will dictate if the package is worth the price compared to the 6040.

A lot depends on the user to maximise the capability of even the worst designed machine......skill is an acquired knack and even the best and most expensive machine won't make up for the lack of it.

I think if the X6 model appears on the OZ EBAY site, the 6040 will be history......that dratted control box of the 6040 will ensure that......replacing it with a Gecko will put the 6040 above the X6 buy in price.
Ian.

[handlewanker]

BTW.....if you intend to do work that needs a vice most of the time.....you need a mill, as the vice is limited to it's jaw width and depth to hold work of any size........a vice with 150mm wide jaws is costly and heavy.

This is one area where you need to think deeply about what type of work you want to do......a mill can machine more material types and use bigger cutters than a gantry router with only a high speed spindle........and they take up less room.
Ian.

[A_Camera]

My opinion is if you want to have lots of clearance under the gantry for whatever........the high Z axis design must be capable of making it happen...

Of course. That's why I said that just raising the sides of the gantry to make it taller may not be a good idea.

[A_Camera]

BTW.....if you intend to do work that needs a vice most of the time.....you need a mill, as the vice is limited to it's jaw width and depth to hold work of any size........a vice with 150mm wide jaws is costly and heavy.

Yes and no. I have two vices basically fixed to my table. One is the taller, heavier and better one, the other is an aluminium vice which is wider, lighter and not tall at all. The aluminium vice can be used for larger and less critical work, the heavy for the precision. In the wider aluminium vice I can fix an MDF waste board which has a 12mm Aluminium plate beneath it. This is my PCB milling and engraving small stuff table. This setup gives me a huge flexibility. The only time this is an "issue" is if I have to make something larger, in that case I have to remove one or both vices, but I have some dovels to make it easy to square again. If I need to do real large stuff and must remove those also then of course, squaring will take longer...

So even if a person uses a vice all the time or most of the time, a CNC router is a good way to go. It certainly offers greater flexibility, speed and work area than a mill. But yes, one have to decide what one is actually planning to use a CNC router for. If I had aimed at heavy metal work I'd go for a mill. For plastic, wood and occasional aluminium or other soft material a CNC router is certainly better in my opinion.