Yamazen CNC knee mill


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    Default Yamazen CNC knee mill

    I am looking at buying a 1987 Yamazen CNC knee mill. The model number is 5VBK though Yamazen Inc. says they never hear of that model. I am looking for a manual or any other information about this machine.

    Thanks

    Vince

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    I went ahead and purchased it. The price seemed right. The seller found some paper work that indicates it was made by Sanki and Yamazen was just a distributor. Yamazen terminated their relationship in 1989 two years after the mill was made. It has an Allen Bradley Series B 8400 control. The paper work does not say what type of spindle it has. I will have to have someone who is more knowledgeable than me look and it and let me know. I plan on stripping off the Allen Bradley control and using Mach 3 to control it. It's a big project and hopefully I won't get bogged down.

    I will post pictures once I get it to my shop.

    Vince



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    I have a Yamazen same as the one you bought. Here are the details on my machine in case you find them useful. I cut and pasted them since I had mine for sale. I was wondering what you paid for yours, I sold mine for 5K. The was one on EBAY but I think it sold. Check out the pic.
    http://cgi.ebay.com/YAMAZEN-3-AXIS-C...QQcmdZViewItem


    YAMAZEN 3 AXIS CNC MILL
    Model: 5BVK
    Model Year: 1988
    Serial Number: 771757
    Control Type: ALLEN BRADLEY 8400 MP
    TABLE SIZE 42" X 13"
    TRAVELS 30" X 15"
    MANUAL VARI-SPEED 70-3800 RPM
    POWER DRAW BAR
    BOX WAYS
    40 TP
    5 HP 220/3PH.

    Machine Manual
    Control Manual
    Control Schematics

    Extra memory.
    DNC capable.
    AutoLube sytem.
    Coolant and mist control.
    Tool holders included.

    Before you change the controller give it a try. I find it very user friendly and very easy to service and maintain. The machine itself is a good iron and the AB8400 controller reliable. Granted is an old machine- controller. I've had mine for 15 years. The IC's may go bad on you every 5 years but they are easy to replace and cost less than 10 each. If you decide to keep the AB8400 email me baytool@hotmai.com and I will give you a few pointers to keep it running at its optimum on the cheap. There are a few people that sell spare parts, form P/S to servo amplifiers, to servos in case yours may need any. The most important thing you will want to do is to remove the brushes on the Y-servo and check to see that oil has not soaked them. If it has, dissasemble the servo (carefull with the encoder at the end, but you knew that) clean it up, put it back together, then build a shield with brass or sheet metal on top of the Y-servo to prevent oil form the Y-screw dripping on the servo. After that TUNE all the servos. I can give you the specs or you can get them from the servo amplifier card manufacturer-the name scapes my memory but most machines from that period used the same servo amplifiers so thery are readily available.
    More tips later if you want them.
    BTW do you know anyone that runs virtual Gibbs on a MAC?



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    Default Yamazen

    Napoleon, your email address bounces. Could you send my a private message or send to "vince at flyingcritters dot com"

    Thanks

    Vince



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    Default Yamazen

    Here are some pictures of the Yamazen mill. I think it takes BT40 holders. I am so clueless on how this is going to work. I have no idea how to upload a program into the Allen/Bradley 8400MP controller (if it even works). I have only use R8 collets before and now I am findout out there are all diferent types of collets and even different pull studs. This should be an adventure.

    Vince

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yamazen CNC knee mill-1-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-2-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-3-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-4-jpg  

    Yamazen CNC knee mill-5-jpg  


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    Vince,

    When you get the machine simply clean it up, level it and hook it up or have an electrician do it for you. Beyond that I will guide you from proper G-code format to file transfer and all the way to maintenace of the controller. You mentioned that the servos and servo amplifiers are not original, there you need to find out what brand they are and do some research on how to tune the servos so that you get 'round circles' or as round as the mechanical errors in the machine allow you to. Check out the servo amplifiers cards for a set of POTS- these you adjust to tune the servos.
    The tooling on my machine is ETM 40. The draw bar has a 5/6-11 thread neumatically operated, and the taper is 40. It sound that your machine may have been modified so check before buying tooling for it.
    Not sure how valuable is your time and your intentions are for this machine, but it would not be a bad idea to disassemble the table and see how much wear the machine has. That will give you a good indication on how many hours are in the machine. Also check that the screw nut assy in the Z axis is tightly attached to the spindle, there should be a couple of metric screws accessible from the left behind a cove plate.There should be a layer of turcite, check out how worn that is. You may want to run an indicator on to of the table and move the table end-to-end and that will also give you and indication of wear.
    In a nutshell, check the machine for mechanical integrity and tighten it as much as you can for the type of work you need within the machine envelope. I think you can get this old machine accurate within .001 realistically.The rest is easy.
    I am getting ahead of myself here. get the machine as ready as you can the let me know where you need a help.

    My email address baytool@hotmail.com - typo error above.



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    From the picture of the controller I can see that the servo amplifier cards are the same brand and type as the original- so they may be original. The POTS are the row of yellowish-orange collor rectangular boxes with a tiny screw at the end. They sit next to the conector with the blue cables.



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    I hooked power to it today. When it powers up it has a message "battery or fuse open" and another about memory might be lost. I changed the two AA batteries on the 8400MP board, but did not see any fuses.

    After is checks memory and I hit Exit a security log in screen appears. The guy who sold the machine to me does not know the code. I tried **** as the manual says that is the "anyone can use the machine code".

    I have the 8400MP installation manual, but it does not say anything about how to boot up without a password. It says that is set at the time you purchase the machine.

    The drives are original, but the paper work I have looks like the motors might be newer. I would really like to get this thing booted up so I can at least try to move the axis.

    Thanks

    Vince



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    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    Wow! Exciting new project Vince. Best of luck.

    There is bound to be a "repair and service" code that works and is never changed, but who knows what it is. Need to find someone who services Allen Bradley controls, call and ask them. Tell them you just bought a used mill and can't get past the password prompt. They will have a procedure to bail you out.

    Best,

    BW



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    I was able to get the motor to run by manually pressing in the contactor. It sounds good, though there is noticable vibration at the max speed of 3,800 rpm. I cleaned up the knee ways and moved the knee up and down. There is noticable staining on the ways that could be rust. I can't feel it with my fingers but it is a rust color.

    The one shot lube system is working. There is a 120V solonoid on the top of it and I thought it might be controlled by the AB system. There is a manual plunger that I operated 10 to 15 times over the course of an hour and I finally did see some oil dripping out of the quill. That's good since I could not find any lubrication point for the quill.

    If I can't get into the contoll system I have been looking at some Pixies contollers that will work with Mach3.

    One other nice thing I have found is though the machine takes 3 phase, the only three phase item on it is the quill motor. I could run everything else from single phase and separate out the motor wiring and run it through a VFD. Right now I have the mill at my work and we have three phase here, but I have only single phase at home.

    Vince



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    Quote Originally Posted by N4NV View Post
    The one shot lube system is working. There is a 120V solonoid on the top of it and I thought it might be controlled by the AB system. There is a manual plunger that I operated 10 to 15 times over the course of an hour and I finally did see some oil dripping out of the quill.
    What gets neglected is the way oil system, its a pain, but it pays to replace the metering devices at the end of every oil line, on an old machine they may have never been replaced, what happens is they slowly get clogged and ends up only one spot gets the oil.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    What gets neglected is the way oil system, its a pain, but it pays to replace the metering devices at the end of every oil line, on an old machine they may have never been replaced, what happens is they slowly get clogged and ends up only one spot gets the oil.
    Al.

    That will be another item on my list things to check. Thanks

    Vince



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    Default Password for Allen Bradley 8400MP

    The password was painfully obvious. ABMP.

    Now I am going to start playing with it and see what kind of machine I have.

    Vince



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    Default Backlash

    I played with the mill for the last couple of hours. I was able to measure the backlash for each axis:
    Z 0.0002
    X 0.0008
    Y 0.0080
    I removed the cover from the Y drive belt and watched the pulleys as I commanded a move. The pulleys were moving even with a move of 0.0001. I then removed the Y axis motor and turned the ball screw by hand. I can feel a slight "crunching" as I start to rotate the ball screw back and forth. I checked the ball nut attachment and it was tight. It looks like I will have to have this ball screw overhauled. I guess the next question is where to I have that done?

    For the first half hour or so I could not get the mill to home. I kept getting the message "PC inhibiting start". I kept turning it on and off, trying different dials etc. and it suddenly started working, I have no idea why. Then the first couple of times it tried to home the Y axis, it faulted with an over travel. I used the handwheel to jog off and then it succeeded.

    I was going to try the draw bar (though I have no tool holder) but I found the glass jar on the water separator broken.

    In the MDI mode I tried feed rate from 1 to 125 IPM and everything seemed to work fine. It looks like I just have to get that Y axis ball screw fixed and I will be good to go (other than buying tool holders, since all I have now are R8).

    Vince



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    Glad to see you found the pwd to log-in. It is all downhill from here. I think you will be happy with that controller. It is a good tool room machine if properly calibrated and maintained. I actually came over here to suggest the original password that I found for my old Yamazen-that being ABBC. But ABMP works! Based on your posts and emails you are very thorough and you would have found it given enough time and a decent strategy such as the ones we talked about yesterday.
    Good luck with your new project. It is certainly is a labor of love. Here is the code for a simple 2D contour. Note that coding before N10 and after N25 will be the same for all programs. Therefore you will have to configure your post to input these lines. Notice that the first line is a colon ( by itself. Set your tool offset at O1 ( letter 'O' number '1') I used to set mine at Z-2.0 programed below that. During MDI when you input a number, 2 for example, remember to place the decimal point after it, otherwise the controller will enter it as 0.0002. If you wanted say 2.0 then you must input 2 AND . (decimal point).

    ;
    G70
    G45O0
    G0Z0.
    M3
    G45O1
    N10G00X1.4406Y.0000Z1.0F20.0
    N11Z-0.9191
    N12G01Z-1.0191
    N13X1.3068Y.0820
    N14X1.2622
    N15X1.3068
    N16G03Y-0.0820I1.4406J.0000
    N17G01X1.2622
    N18X1.6191
    N19X1.5746
    N20G03Y.0820I1.4406J.0000
    N21G01X1.6191
    N22X1.3068
    N23X1.3642Y.0469
    N24X1.3981Y-0.0160
    N25G00Z1.0
    G45O0
    G0Z0M5
    G45O1
    X0.Y0.
    M2



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    I could not wait until Monday. I went back to the shop today an looked at the play in the bearings and found .0075. I removed them and turned the ball screw. It felt fine. One of the bearings felt crunchy. Now I need to track down some 47mmX20mmx15mm bearings in a matched set.

    Vince

    Last edited by N4NV; 02-05-2007 at 09:02 AM.


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    I received the new beiring pair from Nachi the week and installed them in the Y axis. Backlash in the Y axis in now 0.0008". I ran several test and I am getting 0.0002" repeatability. I am really happy with the hardware now.

    I have been playing with the Allen Bradley control system and I just can't figure out their logic. I have the manual right in front of me and I keep getting different messages that keep the machine from doing what I want, so I have decided to scrap the entire control/drive system and install something else. I am looking at both Gecko 320s and Rutex 2020s. The Rutex drive are more than twice what the Geckos are, but they will be able to drive the motors at their rated 143V. Gecko has incredible customer support and I have not delt with Rutex yet. I have sent them an email to see how fast they respond to my questions. That will be a big part of my decistion.

    I did start the conversion process today. You can see my progress in the picture:
    http://www.flyingcritters.com/images/Mach3.jpg
    Now all I have to do is remove the entire existing Allen Bradley controller/drive system, design and build a 140VDC power supply, install new servo drives, breakout board, ModIO, computer, display, and numerous buttons and switches. Another 4 months should do it.

    Vince

    Last edited by N4NV; 02-12-2007 at 10:59 PM.


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    I removed the AB 8400MP computer today. I will list it on eBay in the next couple of days. I was very carefull to label everyting as I disconnected it so I can understand the rest of the controls in case I want to re-use some of them. I am still kicking around the idea of re-using the Servo Dynamic drives with a Skyko Pixie interface. I'm just not sure if the two are compatable. I hate to waste the money and find out they aren't compatable. Othewise I will probably go with the Rutex, although I emailed them on Friday and still have not received a response. If I can't get a response on sales, tech support will most likely be even worse.

    Vince



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    Default Moving on

    I have 90% of the old Allen Bradley 8400MP system removed. I still have about 50% knowledge of how it was wired and what it was controlling, but every day I figure out a little more.

    I decided to start the new installation with the computer and monitor. I found a good deal on a Dell SX260. $200 with shipping. The great thing about this computer is how small it is. It has a 2.4GHZ processor, 20 gig disk and 784meg ram. About a year ago I purchased a Princeton Graphics 17" monitor for another project but never used it. I removed it out of its case and attached it to a new front bezel on the original pendant.

    I made a bracket to hold the computer to the back of the electrical cabinet, and then when I was training the wires I realized that the entire computer would fit in the back of the pendant, behind the monitor. I also made a keyboard and mouse holder and attached it to the front of the pendant.

    I am waiting for some boards (a Pixie 100 for one) before I can start re-wiring the cabinet, but in the mean time I am tracing everything out and making a plan on how to control what's left.

    Vince

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Yamazen CNC knee mill-stripped-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-stripped2-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-dell-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-back-jpg  

    Yamazen CNC knee mill-new-jpg   Yamazen CNC knee mill-back2-jpg  


  20. #20
    Gold Member BobWarfield's Avatar
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    Vince, I'm enjoying your thread here. The Mach 3 name plate is a very nice touch. What did you use to generate the G-code for that?

    I'll be curious to hear how your Skyko board works out. It looks like a good solution for those wanting to retrofit Mach to an older servo system. Also, congrats on the little Dell, it seems ideal.

    What will become of your Bridgeport when the Yamazen is running smoothly? Did you ever track down the backlash source? Was sure sounding like the ballscrew last I checked in. Glad the bearings fixed you up on this machine.

    Best Regards,

    Bob W.



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