Attitudes in Machining


View Poll Results: Machining Attitudes, whats yours?

Voters
225. You may not vote on this poll
  • Don't care

    1 0.44%
  • Just do enough to get by

    2 0.89%
  • Just take short cuts

    1 0.44%
  • Just get it done and out the door

    12 5.33%
  • Want it done right the first time

    172 76.44%
  • Overly nit-picky

    37 16.44%
Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 64

Thread: Attitudes in Machining

  1. #1
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    85
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Attitudes in Machining

    The reason I am writing this as for years and even today to include in the forum you can see several views on attitudes.

    We have the follow traits:
    1. Don't care
    2. Just do enough to get by
    3. Just take short cuts
    4. Just get it done and out the door
    5. Want it done right the first time
    6. Overly nit-picky
    You may have your own categories and well I place my self in between 5 and 6.
    I like to see those that take the extra steps it takes to setup clean and accurate and use those tools you have to make it right to begin with.
    I strongly believe that tolerances are for production not in your setup or programing.
    I have seen people fired for doing what they were told, as we know there are some of those out there that talk a good game but have no clue.

    One incident I ended up being involved in and not by choice.

    There were several difficult parts well at least management thought so and took stock into 2 machinist one being a lead and the other considered the head machinist.
    Over a 3 month period 3 machinist that followed this head machinist were fired and all said when they left they did not do the scrap and did what they were told.
    Then the Shop Manager came to me and placed me into the position following this head machinist, I thought oh boy.

    The first part that was up and running was a casting that had 5 different setups and had a true position tolerance of .005 and he had them convinced that they could not get any closer then .006 true position, do to the machine.
    After inspecting the part off it was out of tolerance.
    I brought the test indicators and went through the setup and corrected it, next part off was in tolerance and there after.
    I left message explaining what I did and the results.
    When I came in the next day it was the attitude of "what you did, did not change anything" so when he left I setup a part and inspected it and it was again out of tolerance at .006 true position.
    The indicator came out and the setup was fine, I checked the program and it had been changed to make the part wrong.
    At this company we kept a hard copy and then one on the server, the server program had been over written.
    The next day he was pulled off those jobs and 2 days later him and his friend the Lead were fired.

    After the rest of the hard jobs were straight out they all became easy to run.

    This is my point take the time to do it right it will make your life easier and will avoid others being accused of poor work or worse fired.

    This is why I also have my signature as it is.

    Similar Threads:
    My Response to "It's Close Enough", "Is Your Tool Box and The Door Close Enough?"


  2. #2
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi DA, you'll find that #4 is the most important attitude you can have, that is if your the boss and you're paying by the hour.

    Too many people take "great pride" in what they do instead of getting the job done and out the door.

    Couple of firms back that I worked for had an old feller that spent most of his time polishing the job to make it look nice, as he was close to retirement and not in the best of health, so he just got by on what he did.

    This meant the boss, (both of them), were constantly breathing down your neck to see the job finished.

    Most of the bosses I've worked for went for production, what went out of the door was money in the bank.

    It goes without saying that the job must be right, IE if you bodge it, it's going to bounce back on you, so then you just gotta learn to not pissball about and keep your mind on the job.

    One guy I worked with was a real pain in the rrrs, he would spend the first half hour of any job cleaning the machine down and beeching about the calibre of those that worked on it before him.
    Ian.



  3. #3
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi DA, you'll find that #4 is the most important attitude you can have, that is if your the boss and you're paying by the hour.....
    You may find a lot of people have this attitude; that doesn't mean it is the most important. Even if you are the Boss this is a good way to go out of business; the correct way to stay in business is do it correctly in the most efficient time and with the most efficient use of materials and tools. And don't overdo it; if a tolerance calls for +/-0.001" don't waste time going for +/-0.0002". Between 5 and 6 is okay so long as you don't start drifting too far toward 6; going any diistance from 5 back to 4 is not okay.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


  4. #4
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    85
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Very good points, when I do setups and run my first part I go to nominal and then use part of the tolerance before adjusting.

    If one has a +/-.01 then as the tool dulls some adjustments can be made with the idea of
    looking at replacing your dull tool when your adjustment exceeds 50% of your tolerance.

    One must as well take into consideration of how many operations the part requires and how the referencing surfaces will play into the accuracy of the other operations.

    It is possible to use up your tolerances on the first 3 operations and then in the 4th and final one you loose the part do to some over tolerancing engineer or someone that has used every bit of tolerance up before getting there.

    There are many owners that have no idea nor want to know what it really takes to produce quality parts in a timely manner.
    Taking the time to have a proper setup is very valuable and cannot be over looked or one will find themselves in scrap or special handling parts which all cost money.

    My Response to "It's Close Enough", "Is Your Tool Box and The Door Close Enough?"


  5. #5
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I thought a bit about the attitude(s) people do have versus what they should have and came to this conclusion: The attitude you should have is the one you want in the guy who repairs the brakes on your car or who maintains the airplane you are going to fly in.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


  6. #6
    Registered
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    617
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I second Geof's comment, I work with AME's, and were you aware that Aircraft mechanics earn about the same amount as automotive mechanics?
    PS I do my own brakes, as I've seen some of the talent that shops use to repair brakes......

    regards



  7. #7
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Hi Geof, I get your point, I still maintain, and that's MY opinion, that if you spend too much time polishing the family silver the kids will only sell it off when you've gone.

    By that I mean, if you want to win in this world it's the first one past the post, no matter how.
    By the way being a yank, how do you feel about the dollar now, OOOOOPS, forgot you be yarkshur born 'n bred, now a Canuk.
    I've been checking out the USA Ebay, boy what a lot of bargains there are.
    Only trouble is the shipping is crap.

    After that rant I think I'll lay off the vintage Port I've been sipping for a nightcap, tends to make the screen a bit fuzzy.

    Actualy, the whole point of the matter comes down to design.
    The tighter you tie up the dimensions the more expensive the job becomes.

    When I was quoting for work I always carefully noted the number of high tolerance dimensions, this dictates the price, and usually this is a sign of an inexperienced draughsman or design person.

    On one job I quoted for the dimensions were so ridiculous I just had to go back and personally check out the designer/draughsman.
    I asked him casually if the dimension to three decimal places,(metric), for a shaft length of 600mm was on a 35 deg C day or something cooler.

    I don't know what your drawing designates are in the USA, but in OZ, or at the firm I last worked for, the tolerance to one decimal place is +/- .25mm or .010" in imperial, no matter what the part is for, and to two decimal places it is +/- .01mm etc etc or half a thou.
    The tolerances were never attached to the drawing dimension, only the decimal place points being the indicator, unless otherwise noted.

    I never saw a drawing with three decimal places to metric, that would have been +/- .001mm or one thousandth of a mm.
    I reckon the part would grow out of tolerance if you held it long enough.

    One of the golden rules of engineering is K.I.S.S. and this starts with loose tolerances, the moment you start to tighten up the sizes, up go the costs, at least you get plenty for your scrap returns.
    Ian.



  8. #8
    Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    12177
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi Geof, I get your point, I still maintain, and that's MY opinion, that if you spend too much time polishing the family silver the kids will only sell it off when you've gone......
    You are perfectly correct. But, if you don't follow my approach they are likely to be selling it of earlier than necessary after having you pulled out of a big hole in the ground before putting the bits back into another one.

    An open mind is a virtue...so long as all the common sense has not leaked out.


  9. #9
    Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6463
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    BTW, If anyone thinks I'm just a cheap bodge merchant that would push a job out of the door in any condition just to get rid of it, far from the truth.

    I started out the wrong way, being apprentice trained in a cosy environment with all the facilities and time to really ponder on the mysteries of mechanical application.

    Five years later it was helter skelter in the rat race as one employer after another drummed it into my head that they weren't paying for spit and polish.

    So at their demand, corners were cut and economies were made, but never at the expense of doing half a job, that would have meant dismissal for ineptitude or shoddy work practice.

    So #4, you just get it done and out the door, time is money, next please.

    Anyone working to #1 2 or 3 is doing so from their own shoddy work habit, which means you wouldn't want them working on a root canal job in your mouth, even if THEY paid you double.
    Ian.



  10. #10
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    164
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    I wonder how many people that vote #5 have cut a pinky finger off for their last mistake? How many of them vote that and actually live a #4 but would never admit it? I have worked in the trade for 18 yrs now and have seen so many from one extreme to the other. You tend to see more willing to get it done and out the door that proclaim perfect the first time every time. I have had to help repair some of these perfect parts where a self proclaimed #5 was really asleep at #3's wheel. I think the bottom line is #4 parts = income! If you make a bad part you don't sell it like that, you fix it or replace it, end of story. Don't slow down to cry about spilled milk, just make the parts. The guys that are really #5 tend to turn out about 1/2 the work as #4 in genneral, now and then you run across an exception... I am sure if your a #5 and reading this you must be the one, I am not trying to hurt anyones feelings

    Danny



  11. #11
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    85
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    The categories leave a lot for interpretation and will differ from ones experience to anothers.
    I was referring to the setup and I could have been a little more clear on this but I didn't when I wrote "Want it done right the first time" as I have seen those also that claim it but end up with junk for others to fix as well.
    The thought I was using is to produce a setup accurate enough to produce good parts in a timely manner with out having to rework or produce scrap. Thus working with feeds and speeds, loading, debur of parts need to locate accurately thus eliminating rework and saving time.

    My Response to "It's Close Enough", "Is Your Tool Box and The Door Close Enough?"


  12. #12
    Registered
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    162
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    ...I was told once I had a 'bad attitude'.

    and I told them 'my attitude was just fine until I met you'


    I #5

    ...sometimes #6


    enat



  13. #13
    Registered 9 1/2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    PRIVATE
    Posts
    129
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Well I picked #5 and thought it to mean: my goal is: "Want it done right the first time" but i am human and will do my best. It does not mean that I claim my stuff is ALWAYS done right the first time. That's not even realistic. **** happens.
    peace

    9 1/2
    B.C.I.T. Machinist CNC


  14. #14
    Registered 9 1/2's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    PRIVATE
    Posts
    129
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    ........... and as an after though.
    what IS "right" as long as the finished product is within tollerance and within the parameters of the drawing. How it got there is open to interpretation.
    Isn't it? I mean except for specific Ops, there is a multitude of ways and means to achive the same final product.
    What the heck am I missing here?
    Where on earth is Q.C.??

    9 1/2
    B.C.I.T. Machinist CNC


  15. #15
    Member HuFlungDung's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    4826
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Much as we might often hear about the cheap stuff from China getting dissed on one forum or the other, I try to take a little care to try to make stuff look at least as good as stuff from China I might even fuss a bit with a (perceived) critical dimension, because I know what's fitting on/it does not have a lot of variation (like a bearing race). The whole part often does not require exactitude everywhere as revealed by the tolerances, but having built a few things and put them together myself over the years, I know the difference between a good fit, and a 'stand across the room and toss it together' fit

    First you get good, then you get fast. Then grouchiness sets in.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  16. #16
    Registered
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    85
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by pixburghenat View Post
    ...I was told once I had a 'bad attitude'.
    and I told them 'my attitude was just fine until I met you'
    I #5
    ...sometimes #6
    enat
    Should of told them that is what the last guy said but he no longer works here

    My Response to "It's Close Enough", "Is Your Tool Box and The Door Close Enough?"


  17. #17
    Registered ImanCarrot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1468
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    #6, here's an example:

    We're company B, we have a competitor- company C. We both supply the same component to the main contractor, company A.

    Now, company C sends us their components for finishing, so bing nosey, I inspect them to see if ours are better or not. There's are out of tolerance by a factor of 2-4.

    But... I know their out of tolerance compoents are being accepted. Nevertheless, I'll make mine correct and try for better than correct to compensate for any environmental changes- a few degree celcius will change my dimensions badly.

    I do undestand that we're in business to make money, but we've actualy won a job even though we were twice the price of the next nearest quote purely due to the fact that we pointed out the difficulties which others might not have seen.

    I sleep easy at night knowing that even if they measure my components outside of a 20 degree temp controlled environment they will still pass (within reason).

    Just my tuppence worth.

    I love deadlines- I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.


  18. #18
    Member
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    11
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    overly nit-picky



  19. #19
    Registered
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    162
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by dapoling View Post
    Should of told them that is what the last guy said but he no longer works here

    ...LOL! They did! ...and I said 'I was looking for a job when I found this one'

    ...not my sig but... "I'd rather be a smart as* than a dumb as*"


    Scott

    Last edited by pixburghenat; 01-29-2008 at 10:27 PM. Reason: content
    Some of my best finds were in the trash....


  20. #20
    Registered
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    Location
    united states
    Posts
    164
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default

    The real question I think in this situation would be... Did they have to pay you a lot more money than the last guy that did your job to hire you or do they pay you a lot more than the other guys where you work? If the answer is yes then they may just be looking to replace you with someone cheaper. If you make a comparable salary then it may just be the boss doesn't like paying overtime that cuts into his bottom line. I don't think it would be right to ask you to teach someone in your first 6 months, they have nothing invested in you except a weekly pay check. If you were a 5 yr employee or had learned the trade there then it would be expected, somewhat a gentleman's agreement.

    Danny

    Danny



Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Attitudes in Machining

Attitudes in Machining