To Chinese or not to Chinese, that is the question

[wmgeorge]

The horror stories over on Sawmill Creek forum about eBay sellers will make you hair curl. The Chinese way is to stall, delay, deny until the eBay and PayPal clock has ran out. Yes, just because the seller lists from Germany does not mean its in his warehouse in Germany. Importing means to your country, it might not have cleared any customs.

[Rainguy]

The horror stories over on Sawmill Creek forum about eBay sellers will make you hair curl. The Chinese way is to stall, delay, deny until the eBay and PayPal clock has ran out. Yes, just because the seller lists from Germany does not mean its in his warehouse in Germany. Importing means to your country, it might not have cleared any customs.

It's in Germany and it's already shipped from Germany ... I have a tracking number and I've verified it ... and it looks like it will be here tomorrow, exactly in line with the sellers delivery dates in their auction. I've been sourcing literally tonnes of shipped weight goods from the ROC trading zone over the years, I know when to smell a rat and not all Chinese suppliers treat their customers like crap.

[Rainguy]

Hi....don't run away with the idea that Paypal is the be all and end all of money back guarantees........once you pay you have to open a dispute if the deal goes bad, but if you've stuffed up with the import requirements and it's sitting at customs and won't come into the country.....ever......Paypal has no further interest in the matter and won't act.

Dude, did you read what I posted? ... it's not Paypal funded via my bank. It's using their credit facilities, which is a completely different thing altogether and is effectively a finance agreement covered in Paypal branding and repaid using your Paypal balance or your regular funding arrangements. It's pretty much the same as buying with a credit card or under a finance agreement, and regulated in accordance with a different set of laws, namely the Consumer Credit Act under which the consumer has an entirely different set of protections laid out in UK law.

[handlewanker]

Re-post #19....".using Paypal with their credit facility".....that has me foxed.

I was under the impression that Paypal is THE credit facility you contract with for an EBAY sale as they have your credit card details etc. and can remove funds as required directly from your Paypal account or credit card to pay the seller when you hit the green for go box.

They also hold the funds in the Paypal bank account until you indicate goods received and OK.....otherwise with a dispute they can return the funds to you without the seller being able to clear the account out......that is the beauty of a Paypal transaction.....but you already know that.
Ian.

[Rainguy]

Re-post #19....".using Paypal with their credit facility".....that has me foxed.

I was under the impression that Paypal is THE credit facility you contract with for an EBAY sale as they have your credit card details etc. and can remove funds as required directly from your Paypal account or credit card to pay the seller when you hit the green for go box.

No, PayPal is not a credit facility. The credit is extended by your own credit card. You don't need to go through a credit check for a PayPal account, you just need to have a way of funding it through your bank or your own credit card. If you can't fund it, it doesn't work, and the transaction does not complete. PayPal are just an intermediary that enable transactions between different funding tools.

They also hold the funds in the Paypal bank account until you indicate goods received and OK.....otherwise with a dispute they can return the funds to you without the seller being able to clear the account out......that is the beauty of a Paypal transaction.....but you already know that.
Ian.

... and that's exactly what I don't have. I've decided to use a new facility that PayPal have started offering in the last year or so. I am using a line of credit where PayPal is the provider of the credit, not my credit card and not my bank. In the UK the consumer credit act applies to all facilities of this type of finance, otherwise they would not be allowed to offer it in the UK as they would be an unlicensed credit broker, and that's effectively the same as a loan shark. I had to go through a credit check and it appears on my credit score, just like any other credit card or finance agreement - completely unlike normal PayPal. All I do when I complete the transaction is select the method of how I'm going to fund it - either through my bank, or my own credit card, or in this case through PayPal's own credit facility. The rate of interest is comparable with a regular credit card, however I'm currently getting interest free for a period on all purchases over £150, so thought I'd use that plus get the consumer credit act protection. For purchases made on a credit card in the UK, your contract is a "tri-partite" contract which includes the finance company, since they technically own the goods until they're paid for. If there is any problem with the goods or services when you pay for them under a finance agreement then your course for redress is with the finance company. Since I'm using PayPal's actual credit service to fund the transaction then they are totally on the hook if there are any issues. If I'd just used my own money to fund the PayPal transaction then it's a different matter.

Anyway, I didn't come here to give lessons in UK financial services law, I came here to talk about laser cutters/engravers, so lets move on shall we. I have a DHL tracking number which tells me it's going to be here imminently so this whole PayPal thing you keep banging on about is a moot point. As far as the merchantable quality of the goods it remains to be seen, but whatever the issues are then I'm prepared to "work forward" on them myself by upgrading items as required and any warranty returns will just have the replacement items going on shelf as spares. I'm fully expecting to have spent as much as if I'd used a UK based supplier, however I will probably have learned a lot more about the machine and the technology in the process and end up with a more personalised solution.

[wmgeorge]

They have had PayPal credit here in the states for sometime, its just another credit card. More important than all the credit, buyer protection whatever is the reputation of the seller and the feedback score... which can be doctored. I am looking forward for the reports on the machine!

[handlewanker]

Good old Paypal..........always there when you want it.

[mark747]

Good luck with your purchase, I hope all is well for you. I recently had some solar panels for my swimming pool purchased from Germany. Very prompt delivery and no import duties to pay, so all went smoothly.
Will look forward to your reports on the machine.

[epilotdk]

Good luck getting past UK customs and unless its approved by your equivalent of our FDA and OSHA it will not be allowed. This is from a source who is in the UK and deals with lasers everyday... not me.
Unless of course its already in your country.... in any event good luck.

I have imported 4 lasers to UK from China. The last one was in 2013. Never had any requests for any paperwork.

[wmgeorge]

I have imported 4 lasers to UK from China. The last one was in 2013. Never had any requests for any paperwork.

No Customs, no VAT and they did not think it was a Class 4 laser? I have a source that works with lasers in the UK who is in charge of a large plant and says any legally imported machine into the UK must pass an Inspection. Most Chinese machines do not pass approval unless they are made to UK standards.

[epilotdk]

Duty and VAT paid. Clearance done by the shipping agency.

[wmgeorge]

Duty and VAT paid. Clearance done by the shipping agency.

Looks like a pretty good system.

[epilotdk]

I don't the issue is on the import side. Mine were all imported for my own use. However if you sell lasers commercially then they have to comply with standards.

[Rainguy]

It turned up yesterday. On initial inspection it appears to be exactly as advertised and very much in line with my expectations. So far I've only uncrated it and removed the base in order to get it down the side passage of my house and into my workshop. The base looks like it's been sitting around in a warehouse getting kicked about a bit, but the machine itself is pristine. It's 32c here at the moment and with the ambient temp in my workshop I'm not rushing to get this thing running until I can ensure sufficiently cool water - not only that but I'm melting in my workshop too as it's right in the sun. For now I'm just going over the whole unit checking and re-checking everything. At the moment the only thing I've found a problem is the door switch is broken but I've already ordered a bag of limit switches off Amazon for £6 which turned up same day, so no biggie at all. The extractor is the typical huge industrial thing which seems to come with all of these Chinese lasers and whilst the wiring for the power looks like it's been beefed up I'll be running it independently on a separate supply to be safe.

I'll let you know how initial tests work out later this week as we're scheduled to have much cooler weather at the end of this week, by which time I'll also have a decent chiller inline anyway and possibly some aircon in my workshop too.

[Rainguy]

Just spent another couple of hours checking it over. Powered up minus power to the lasertube - main screen displays english, X and Y carriages work very well with no noticeable play on either. I've re-assembled the Z axis on the bed as I had to take the whole lot apart in order to get the base off - that's working fine too. Replaced the door switch. Trimmed out all the door panels with foam on the edges as they are all loose fitting rattled pretty loud if you so much as look at them - that alone has takes away the impression of any flimsiness and allows you to appreciate that despite the chassis being assembled using M3 cap heads and self-tapping 10mm bolts as the primary fasteners, it's pretty solid. The extractor works well and actually isn't as loud as I thought it would be, but at 230w I'm going to run it separately and not through the PDU on the unit. In fact I'm going to do the same with the air and water pump too. I've got a UK supplied 4000 LPH water pump from a marine aquarium I used to have, I'm going to rig that up with big 50 litre container and half a dozen ice packs and a digital thermometer on the side. I can fill the whole lot with RO water from my own RO filter, which I recon should be good enough until my CW-5000 arrives.

[Rainguy]

I spent a bit of time on the optics this evening. They didn't look like they were in bad shape, just some slight marking on the mirrors from having a laser tested on them whilst a bit dirty. What was on there cleaned up relatively easily.

Rigged up my make-shift cooling solution with water at around 17c in the ambient 33c in my workshop. Just ran a couple of simple 30 second engraving jobs at about 15% power and it works a treat. Over the coming weekend I'll have a lot more time to tinker. I've worked out how to get my STL's into RDWorks, output onto a USB and engrave stuff and so now I'm going to spend a little studying the SarbarMultimedia material on RDWorks on YouTube and get more familiar with the software whilst I wait on chillers and amp meters, etc.

So far I'm pretty pleased with what I've got for my money. I only really needed 500x300 working area at 40w but I've managed to get a 700x500 machine which should give me more room than I need and saved about £1000 over buying a UK solution. That's a couple of tubes worth. They claim it's a 60w machine but I'm not sure. 1100mm tube seems to indicate that it's more than 40w but not quite 60w, but in reality I don't think I'll be needing to drive this any greater than 50% power for 95% of what I've got in mind, so I'm hoping I'll get more than a couple of months out of the stock tube as I won't be getting close to overdriving it at all, but you never know. I've got money in the budget to deal with that eventuality and if it happens then it's an another upgrade opportunity.

I've been expecting the worst all the way through this exercise and having my expectations set fairly low I've got to say that whilst it's early days I'm glad to have gone the Chinese route. As a hobbiest I couldn't really justify spending more than I have. Affordability isn't the issue, I just need to make sure that my outlay is justified by the likely use case. If I was planning on running a full time business then I don't think I would have done it this way.

[Rainguy]

Update : Loads of cutting and engraving.

3mm ply and acrylic, it goes through it like butter at 50% power at 15-20 mm/s, ply needs to be a bit quicker to stop excessive burning at the edges. I've been learning a lot about the different material properties, in particular the nature of the cuts and how I have to adjust my dimensions in my CAD drawings to take account of the extra material that is removed when cutting/melting acrylic. I've been studying Russ at Sabar Multimedia's youtube channel on the subject of optimal ways of dealing with acrylic. Does airflow affect this dramatically? I'm using the supplied air pump but do folk recommend anything different?

I've ordered some 5mm and 6mm ply and acrylic to test cutting thicker materials, although for the most part I seem to be able to cut pretty everything I want at 50% power, which gives me quite a bit of confidence to tackle thicker stuff, just as a test. The CW-3000 chiller has actually been doing a decent job alongside the AC unit I've now got in my workshop. I think it's about all I need as I seem to be able to keep the temps around the 20c mark relatively easily. I'm only running it for a few minutes at a time and my longer jobs are just lower powered engraving tasks.

[endurance_robots]

have a look at this and be careful with Chinese lasers...)