Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad? - Page 2


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Thread: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

  1. #13
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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
    Facebook Laser Cutter Tech Support: https://www.facebook.com/groups/lasercuttertechsupport


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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Yang View Post
    There is huge difference between SERVO and STEPPER. I don’t want to go in the details but briefly:

    Stepper motors are inexpensive and inferior to servo. They rapidly loose torque and precision with speed increase and may cause vibration/resonance issues. On the other hand they perform solid when used at low speeds. Their low-speed torque is similar to this of a SERVO motor and if they are used in a quality system within the adequate speed range they would seldom (or never) miss steps and do not require error corrections (closed loop). Actually this is main reason for the use of steppers - they DO NOT require a closed loop.

    The closed loop steppers use a basic method of step count verification. That is useful in low-speed system that have to overcome major changes of loads and friction. They have very limited programing and tuning capabilities and are normally used only in slow rotary CNC machines. At high speeds they are as unreliable as the open loop steppers because that is inherited in the stepper technology itself and cannot be overcame by the simple use of a step counter. Of course the laser machines don’t have the problem with changing loads and friction at low-speed therefore the laser machine manufactures do not use closed loop steppers as they are more expensive and provide only minor advantage. In fact Thunderlaser is the only laser brand I know of that is using closed loop steppers for laser machines.

    The SERVO systems provide perfect control over any motion aspect in pretty much any condition. Their advanced encoders can be programed to dynamically change the operation to control velocity, vibration, torque, compensate load and friction at any practical speed for perfectly smooth and precise motion, without errors. They are the ultimate choice when it comes to laser machines. All high-quality brands use them excessively for their mid. and high-end lines. The only disadvantage the Servo technology is the cost which is drastically higher than that of a stepper.

    The Leadshine’s “EASY SERVO” is not a technical term. It is invented by their marketing team in reference to their closed loop steppers. Leadshine is the only brand that uses this term and probably many engineers would be annoyed by it. It is a “half lie”. I am saying “half” because on their website Leadshine clearly distinguishes their (real) servo calling it simply “SERVO” from the CL steppers calling them “EASY” servo. Of course if you take the “EASY” part the half-lie becomes a full-lie… I am sure a lot of Chinese manufacturers are tempted to lie in their specifications in order to increase their sales but Thunderlaser is the only brand bold enough to actually do it. Now and then I hear in this forum how people chose Thunderlaser over other brands because of their SERVO… I feel bad for them because with the money they paid to Thunderlaser they could have purchased a machine with a real SERVO from an honest brand. If Thunderlaser was a USA company probably there would have been a dozen a lawsuits filed against them by now for false specifications.

    Nolan, please don’t take it personally. I know you are not the person behind this. I strongly suggest you speak with the right manager in your company to correct it. It may seem as a “good business” to deceive clients but in long term it may harm the reputation of the brand as nothing else. All your hard work for promoting the brand here in the forum with samples and videos would not be enough to compensate the perception of dishonesty.

    Last edited by Storen; 04-10-2017 at 08:10 AM.


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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    In Nolan's defense, the Leadshine web site does refer to them as "Easy Servo Drives". Doesn't make it right but Leadshine should be called to task as well.

    At what speed will the "closed loop steppers" have problems in accurately generating the requested speed or movement. That's probably impossible to answer without a lot more data, but could anyone estimate a value for something like a laser cutter?

    My CNC mill and lathe both use Leadshine 3-phase steppers with no encoders and so far as I know they have never lost a step. They need to push around a lot more mass than a laser head or gantry, but their speed is limited by the machine manufacturer to something like 120 ipm or 50 mm/sec, while Thunder Laser specs their machines at 1,000 mm/sec.



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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Nolan - thanks for continuing to answer these questions. Here are some more, if you don't mind:

    1) What sort of rails do you use in your products, specifically the Nova 24?
    2) Can you share any info on the Nova 24 blower? A manufacturer and part number would be great, but I'm especially interested in the volumetric flow rate (CFM or m3/hr) and the noise level at the blower and the outlet of the vent line.

    I don't know anything about the sorts of rails that are used in lasers. Do most manufacturers in this class use the same parts or does it vary by manufacturer?



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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    We use linear rails in Nova24. We have a hardware factory as well, we produce directly.
    About the noise level of blower, please look at this video.
    I will post some pics later


    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelHenry View Post
    Nolan - thanks for continuing to answer these questions. Here are some more, if you don't mind:

    1) What sort of rails do you use in your products, specifically the Nova 24?
    2) Can you share any info on the Nova 24 blower? A manufacturer and part number would be great, but I'm especially interested in the volumetric flow rate (CFM or m3/hr) and the noise level at the blower and the outlet of the vent line.

    I don't know anything about the sorts of rails that are used in lasers. Do most manufacturers in this class use the same parts or does it vary by manufacturer?
    Do you know the address of our distributor Clay? I think you can go there and see the details, it's better to understand it.

    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    @MichaelHenry

    “In Nolan’s defense, …”
    As I mentioned earlier, I doubt Nolan is responsible for this. He is probably afraid to talk openly about that here in the forum.

    “Leadshine should be called to task as well”
    There are other brand calling the CL Steppers - Hybrid-Servo, Stepper-Servo etc indicating that these are not regular or actual servos. The word “Easy” is probably the most deceiving of all, but at least in the description they are very honest about the use of steppers.

    I can’t say the same for Thunderlaser. The fact their machines are equipped with CL Steppers is not mentioned anywere on their website or docimentation. Not a single word… I seriously doubt their sales people would mention this either when they are offering their “Servo” machines. The deception is complete and intentional.

    “At what speed will the “closed loop steppers" have problems in accurately generating the requested speed or movement."
    The Max. Stable Speed would depend on many factors, components and also on the mode (cut or scan). In the past I asked Nolan to run a sample (cut) at 100mm/s. The sample came with a lot of errors. He suggested that if I need accuracy I should use lower speeds. So I know it is lower than 100, but how much lower, I don't know. Nolan and the owners of Thunderlaser machines should be able to advise on that.

    “Thunder Laser specs their machines at 1,000 mm/sec.”
    I wouldn’t pay too much attention on their spec They’ve probably just copy-pasted the spec of the motors instead of listing the actual performance of the machine.

    @Nolan

    “We have a hardware factory as well, we produce directly.”
    - What components do you produce directly?

    - Have you considered using real Servo for some of your machines? I think it is a good idea to offer this as an option. Most other Chinese brands like Bodor, Argus, G Weike, etc. offer Japanese (Panasonic or Yaskawa) servos for their custom configurations.



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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-1-jpgComponents in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-2-jpgComponents in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-3-jpg
    This one is we use.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-1-jpg   Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-2-jpg   Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-3-jpg  
    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Yang View Post
    This one is we use.
    Yes, this is a hybrid with a stepper motor. Not a true Servo.

    The question is - Why this is not mentioned on your specifications and promotional materials?

    If you want to be honest with your clients your specifications should say "Hybrid Servo". Or if you want to use a proper technical term (as you should on a spec sheet) it should say "CL Stepper System".



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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan Yang View Post
    Do you know the address of our distributor Clay? I think you can go there and see the details, it's better to understand it.
    Thanks - I'll follow up with Clay.



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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Um....yes, you can call it hybrid servo, or CL stepper system, or something else you like, Leadshine company just call it "servo motor".. maybe it is not a formal name, and it is also an advisement for them?
    So do you think our company is not honest with our clients? Servo motor is one of our component difference with other companies, of course I think it's a selling point. We did change our laser from normal stepper motor to servo motor(ok, the whole name should be hybrid servo) in 2014. And other companies didn't have any change at that time.

    What is false? I think someone tell you that the lifetime of laser tube is about 8000 hours, or up to 10000 hours is a liar(1 or 2 good tubes can't say the fact). They promise the after sales services, but they don't have at last(and our after sales services is we will reply their emails/phone call/skype on time when they get an issue, yes, we can't provide on-site maintain, our customers know it. Do you think local company is reliable? FSlaser or Boss laser still don't reply email or answer call when they can't customer's issue). Some company tell you that the highest DPI is 4000...come on, epilog laser DPI is about 1000..what can you say for that?

    Sometimes, I think customers are strict with Chinese machines, they can accept the small issue if they buy it from local company, but it will be a "big problem" if it happens on their import machines.
    At the same time, I also can understand it. Most customers want to get a cheap and reliable machine. Yes, the price from most chinese companies are attractive, I believe the customers ask so much questions, to make sure that it is a reliable machine. But not all salesmen tell the facts. Some of them just want to make more orders, they just say yes before you buy it. and when the issue happen, they ignore the customers(actually, it's hard for them to provide good services at that low price).
    I know some customers speed several thousands to buy the laser, it is a big money for them, they expect to earn the money back from their new business. But maybe the fact is they have to spend much time and money on fixing it... it's really disappointed..
    Anyway, for our customers, we make sure that our laser can meet their application, and if they accept our price, we promise they can get assist from us always.

    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
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    Default Re: Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?

    Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?-1-jpg

    WOW it sure had some quality on it sir but on our lasers we never encountered breakdown on the stepper control boards on the 3 china laser machines we`ved had, it`s always the MPC6525A/ MPC6515 logic module, that`s the one sometimes goes blank for some unknown reason, on your product what logic board did you use sir?



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Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?
Components in Chinese lasers- what's good, what's bad?