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Thread: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

  1. #13
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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    >>Some suppliers will say that it is 12,000hrs, but as they are suppliers,
    they do advertisement. It's easy to understand what they say.
    I really don't believe a tube life is rate at 12,000hrs.<<

    Most every laser tube warranty starts from the manufacturing date and runs constantly, not based on hours used. 12000 divided by 24 hours is 500 days or 1.36 years. More than likely, the warranty is on a sliding scale too. In other words, they do a full replacement when the tube is very new (e.g. maybe up to three months) and then would issue a smaller and smaller percentage partial credit toward buying a replacement as the tube continues to age. Don't forget that shipping costs for a replacement are usually the laser machine owner's responsibility.

    "80 Watt” 700mm x 500mm Ke Hui KH-750 Laser (Similar to the Red Sail)


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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Storen View Post
    For me it has always been a mystery why would someone in his right mind pay $9-11K for a Chinese machine that costs $2-3K.. Charging markup fees to cover for import, stock, support, service, etc. is understandable. 30-50% markup should cover for all this and allow for a healthy profit. Paying more than that to a "very friendly and professional" local re-seller is a strange decision.
    This kind of hot air being blown into the atmosphere usually touted by non-business owners. In my shop if i charge too much for service or equipment I lose customers. Nobody was wanting to rent a building I marketed recently so I had to lower the rent. In an open and competitive market companies will know they're charging too much when nobody wants to buy what they offer. The Made in China iPhone that cost you $750 cost Apple around $200. A 350% markup. If you find that stranger or even offensive - don't buy it. In your example If you want to charge $3,900 for your own machine that cost $3,000, then start your own business and do it yourself. Just don't tell me or any other business owner that's 'understandable' for them.



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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by vrc321 View Post
    >>Some suppliers will say that it is 12,000hrs, but as they are suppliers,
    they do advertisement. It's easy to understand what they say.
    I really don't believe a tube life is rate at 12,000hrs.<<

    Most every laser tube warranty starts from the manufacturing date and runs constantly, not based on hours used. 12000 divided by 24 hours is 500 days or 1.36 years. More than likely, the warranty is on a sliding scale too. In other words, they do a full replacement when the tube is very new (e.g. maybe up to three months) and then would issue a smaller and smaller percentage partial credit toward buying a replacement as the tube continues to age. Don't forget that shipping costs for a replacement are usually the laser machine owner's responsibility.
    Um, so I can understand it well, warranty starts from the manufacturing. Thank you for explaining.
    But I think the warranty for every company is a little different, someone provide 3, 6 or 12 months, someone cover the shipping cost during warranty.
    The warranty for our customers is 6 months for consumable and free shipping cost during warranty.

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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by BLshop View Post
    This kind of hot air being blown into the atmosphere usually touted by non-business owners. In my shop if i charge too much for service or equipment I lose customers. Nobody was wanting to rent a building I marketed recently so I had to lower the rent. In an open and competitive market companies will know they're charging too much when nobody wants to buy what they offer. The Made in China iPhone that cost you $750 cost Apple around $200. A 350% markup. If you find that stranger or even offensive - don't buy it. In your example If you want to charge $3,900 for your own machine that cost $3,000, then start your own business and do it yourself. Just don't tell me or any other business owner that's 'understandable' for them.
    Yes, I agree. And every company has its strategy. Someone just want to extend business with low cost.. Someone want to make difference with others, they will make a good product and good services.
    You know Universal, Trotec are very expensive. There are many people need laser cutters, but not all people are their customers..only that people who can afford to buy it..

    E-mail:nolan@thunderlaser.com facebook:https://www.facebook.com/ThunderLaser
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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    Hi Storen, are you a rep for GCC. What makes them better than the Boss and Rabbit lasers? Right now I'm torn between whether or not I need a machine with a Reci tube or not.



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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by BLshop View Post
    This kind of hot air being blown into the atmosphere usually touted by non-business owners. In my shop if i charge too much for service or equipment I lose customers. Nobody was wanting to rent a building I marketed recently so I had to lower the rent. In an open and competitive market companies will know they're charging too much when nobody wants to buy what they offer. The Made in China iPhone that cost you $750 cost Apple around $200. A 350% markup. If you find that stranger or even offensive - don't buy it. In your example If you want to charge $3,900 for your own machine that cost $3,000, then start your own business and do it yourself. Just don't tell me or any other business owner that's 'understandable' for them.
    BLshop,

    You consider yourself a professional (I guess that is what you mean by “business owner”) and accuse me of not being such. At the same time the examples you give are naive at best. I am not going to comment on your renting example, but you should be able to distinguish a manufacturer from re-seller. Come on, these are basic things…..

    What manufacturers such Apple, Trotec, ULS, etc. do is they invest huge amount of money and time in research, design, development, testing, and production control. The actual production (parts, assembly and logistics) cost is only a fraction of their investment. There is a huge difference between the criteria and regulations of the Asian companied designing equipment for their local markets and these of the western brands who would use Chinese production facilities for their own designs/products and under their strict quality control. In my line of business I had to travel frequently to China and visited many factories (not related to lasers). The conditions and the quality of the deliverable of the locally managed factories and those managed by the demanding western brands are simply incomparable.

    What re-seller companies like Rabbit and Boss (and many others like them) do is, they would contact a Chinese laser-assembly factory and request OEM custom configurations with their own colors and logo painted. Exactly the way YOU could do that if you contact the factory over Alibaba. 99% of the Chinese laser-assembly factories would offer you a long list with available of-the-shelf, third-party components, large selection of colors and the opportunity to add your own logo. You can request that even for a single machine! All they do is importing the machines from China and hoping to re-sell them to people like you with a 300-400% markup… Yes, they offer support that is more convenient than contacting the original manufacturer (that is not so hard by the way) and you can speak with them in proper English. Does that justify the insane markup is for everyone to decide for themselves. You have to keep in mind that these machines are entirely made in China and no better in any way than those you could buy yourself directly from the factory.

    Last edited by Storen; 03-11-2017 at 11:28 AM.


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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by jram View Post
    Hi Storen, are you a rep for GCC. What makes them better than the Boss and Rabbit lasers? Right now I'm torn between whether or not I need a machine with a Reci tube or not.
    Ha ha, no I have nothing to do with GCC. In fact I overlooked this brand for very long. Not long ago I had to research the options for a couple of machines for my business. I wanted to explore all the opportunities and educate myself as much as I can before spending thousands. I was surprised to find there are so many options. There is no “best” brand or “best” machine. The GCC models I recommended are not for everyone but I think they may be the right machines for your criteria and price range. Definitely better than the cheap machines Boss and Rabbit offer for the same price (because of the insane re-seller markup). I can go in the details and compare the configurations component by component but this would require a lot of writing Anyway I think it would be best if you learn about the different technologies used in the different models and do the comparison yourself.



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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by Storen View Post
    BLshop,

    ,,.you should be able to distinguish a manufacturer from re-seller.

    ...What re-seller companies like Rabbit and Boss (and many others like them) do is, they would contact a Chinese laser-assembly factory and request OEM custom configurations with their own colors and logo painted.... You have to keep in mind that these machines are entirely made in China and no better in any way than those you could buy yourself directly from the factory.

    Point here is not manufacturer / re-seller and who decided to invest much or little. Point is that in a free market business owners can adjust their price by listening to their market instead of your recommended 30% markup.


    You make these broadly stroked claims about Rabbit/Boss that I doubt you have any first hand knowledge of their actual build process and relationship with their suppliers. I have actually been to China (visit cnc suppliers) and true their working standards dont compare to Western companies. But, understand companies do over come that. Its not uncommon for contracts to be enforced beforehand ensuring what's built adheres to their own innovative design specs. Western companies do this too. Buy enough product at an agreed price and they will build a lot more than their custom config. I think the key is the supplier needs to be held accountable to very specific, clear details with componentry and build quality. Given some of the long standing customer feedback with Ray's Rabbit machines and Boss (in this thread and elsewhere) there's evidence to support they're simply not the stereotypical reseller you presume.

    To the contrary, you can't find a lot of user feedback about GCC on this forum or thread. You being the main contributor in the Zone it seems. Not much of anything on Google / FB either?

    @Jram. Given your situation I would suggest you find out ongoing the support behind the machine. Given all the different hands that will run it you probably benefit from timely tech support and replacement parts.



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    Default Re:

    Quote Originally Posted by BLshop View Post
    Point here is not manufacturer / re-seller and who decided to invest much or little. Point is that in a free market business owners can adjust their price by listening to their market instead of your recommended 30% markup.


    You make these broadly stroked claims about Rabbit/Boss that I doubt you have any first hand knowledge of their actual build process and relationship with their suppliers. I have actually been to China (visit cnc suppliers) and true their working standards dont compare to Western companies. But, understand companies do over come that. Its not uncommon for contracts to be enforced beforehand ensuring what's built adheres to their own innovative design specs. Western companies do this too. Buy enough product at an agreed price and they will build a lot more than their custom config. I think the key is the supplier needs to be held accountable to very specific, clear details with componentry and build quality. Given some of the long standing customer feedback with Ray's Rabbit machines and Boss (in this thread and elsewhere) there's evidence to support they're simply not the stereotypical reseller you presume.

    To the contrary, you can't find a lot of user feedback about GCC on this forum or thread. You being the main contributor in the Zone it seems. Not much of anything on Google / FB either?

    @Jram. Given your situation I would suggest you find out ongoing the support behind the machine. Given all the different hands that will run it you probably benefit from timely tech support and replacement parts.
    OK, on your 4 points:


    1. They should sell as high as they can because this is how the free market works - Yes, I agree. I don’t know how smart this is in long term, but I don’t blame them for trying. I have hard time understanding the people who buy from them.


    2. Their own innovative design specs - Very interesting. Could you please introduce us to these innovative specs that set them apart form the other Chinese machines?


    3. You can’t find a lot of user feedback about GCC - And this leads you to the conclusion that GCC must be inferior to Rabbit??? Seriously?


    4. You being the main GCC contributor in the Zone - That's not true. I learned about this brand here in this forum from other members who own GCC machines. I wouldn’t recommend them for RF or Fiber machines but I believe currently they make the best glass tube machines in the 8-10K range.


    Little history - They use to make only high-end RF machines in the spec. and price range of Trotec, ULS and Epilog. Few years ago they extended their line with configurations equipped with more affordable glass tubes. But even for their aggressively priced glass-tube configurations they use similar advanced systems as for the high-end models. As far I know they are the only brand that has a standard configuration combining expensive analog DC SERVO with a glass tube. Even Epilog and Trotec use steppers for their entry-lvl machines. Unlike most Chinese machines (and those sold by Boss and Rabbit), GCC develops for many years their own proprietary software optimized for their specific machines and configurations. I cant stress enough how important that is. In general they sell to more demanding clients who would need reliable top quality equipment and are unwilling to take the risks associated with the low-cost Chinese machines.


    All in all, we are talking about different class machines that should not be compared. The fact that they sell on the same price is incredible. Of course this is not because GCC sells cheap but because re-sellers like Rabbit overcharge greatly.

    Last edited by Storen; 03-11-2017 at 04:36 PM.


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    Default Re:

    1. They should sell as high as they can because this is how the free market works - Yes, I agree. I don’t know how smart this is in long term, but I don’t blame them for trying. I have hard time understanding the people who buy from them.
    Read the feedback here and elsewhere. The general consensus makes it very understandable to me.

    2. Their own innovative design specs - Very interesting. Could you please introduce us to these innovative specs that set them apart form the other Chinese machines?
    BenM2 mentioned in this thread already! Rays larger machines are designed so sections can fit through doorways, Boss has 4 material pass throughs, Laser head+auto focus in one. They claim they
    design/engineer their own machines.


    3. You can’t find a lot of user feedback about GCC - And this leads you to the conclusion that GCC must be inferior to Rabbit??? Seriously?
    That's your conclusion. I don't have either machine so I can't say. I'm saying if this company serves its customers as good as you say they do then there should be people talking about it somewhere. GCC been around a while too.


    4. You being the main GCC contributor in the Zone - That's not true. I learned about this brand here in this forum from other members who own GCC machines. I wouldn’t recommend them for RF or Fiber machines but I believe currently they make the best glass tube machines in the 8-10K range.
    I can't find any feedack about the models you recommend. Okay so do they make their own glass tubes?


    Little history - They use to make only high-end RF machines in the spec. and price range of Trotec, ULS and Epilog. Few years ago they extended their line with configurations equipped with more affordable glass tubes. But even for their aggressively priced glass-tube configurations they use similar advanced systems as for the high-end models. As far I know they are the only brand that has a standard configuration combining expensive analog DC SERVO with a glass tube. Even Epilog and Trotec use steppers for their entry-lvl machines. Unlike most Chinese machines (and those sold by Boss and Rabbit), GCC develops for many years their own proprietary software optimized for their specific machines and configurations. I cant stress enough how important that is. In general they sell to more demanding clients who would need reliable top quality equipment and are unwilling to take the risks associated with the low-cost Chinese machines.
    All in all, we are talking about different class machines that should not be compared. The fact that they sell on the same price is incredible. Of course this is not because GCC sells cheap but because re-sellers like Rabbit overcharge greatly.

    I've read reviews on their proprietary software and support. GCC is Tawian based right? Having good technology is only one piece of the pie. Servos and proprietary software can't outperform bad support. I've read of other companies in this forum who focused on technology so much that they neglected the customer.
    You put more emphasis on technology whereas for many others support and ease of use is paramount. And the companies headlining this thread seem to do that very well Which is why I would be skeptical about GCC until I heard more.
    Perhaps you can show projects you did on your machines. When I show prospects finished products I milled - that's the sizzle.

    Have a good weekend.




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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    @Jram, Did you make a decision on what you were going to get?



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    Default Re: Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice

    Quote Originally Posted by Willywonka321 View Post
    @Jram, Did you make a decision on what you were going to get?
    Hi WIllywonka321,
    I haven't made a decision yet, I'm still torn on what lasers to choose. I have really been hearing great things about Boss support lately so I've been leaning towards them.. But, I really like the price of Thunderlaser. I have recently looked into GCC machines because of tis thread, but they don't have prices on their site. I'm still open to input and suggestions as I have until July 1 before receiving the money from the grants.



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Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice
Rabbit Laser vs Boss Laser LS 2436, looking to buy, need advice