Looking to set up an engraving business, need some advice on needs and machines!

[jbartus]

Hello everyone,

A friend and I are looking into setting up a small business doing laser engraving. Our initial business model involves engraving on anodized aluminum and, possibly, using a product like CerMark (good stuff? Ran across it during my research) to do black on stainless steel. Later on down the road we are considering the possibility of doing glassware as well, though whether this is feasible with the same laser as we can use for the aluminum without breaking the bank to get a more powerful laser is a major factor and this, I'm afraid, is where I'm not sure how to proceed. In short, I don't know a whole lot about laser engraving, what sort of power requirements exist, or anything like that. We're hoping to find a machine that we can finance somewhere in the $7-10,000 range to start out but quality is also of heavy importance to us and we don't want to cut corners just to get a cheap price. Our initial product we're planning to start out making is military style dog tags and we want to be sure that we'll get nice crisp lettering and vector logo engraving out of whatever machine we purchase.

The first question I have that I haven't been able to find anything conclusive about through my research relates to the laser power necessary for our application. There are all these various wattage options out there and I don't know what wattage is necessary for anodized aluminum, acrylic, glassware, etc. and one vendor I spoke to tried to talk us into a $2000 upgrade to get a 90 watt laser when I told him what we were looking to do. We want to buy the right machine for the job, and certainly aren't averse to spending extra if we need to, but I wanted to get some solid advice from people who don't have a vested interest in selling me an upgrade. In short, what wattage laser would be optimal for engraving on anodized aluminum? How about glassware?

Of course, knowing the necessary wattage is only half of the battle and, while there seem to be countless manufacturers out there, we haven't been able to form a solid conclusion one way or another regarding who we should be looking at for our laser solution. Ideally we'd like to do all or most of our art preparation in either Adobe Illustrator or, in the case where a customer does not have vector artwork and does not care to pay for the art fee to create it, Adobe Photoshop. We'd ideally like to go with a US made laser as in these tough economic times we know local businesses can use all the help they can get but if we can get significantly better value for price going through a US distributor of machines made internationally we're not averse to this possibility. Some of the companies we have looked at thus far as a result of our research are Full Spectrum Laser, Hurricane Lasers, Epilog, Rabbit Laser USA, and Legacy Lasers but it is often hard to tell who is selling a US made machine or not and, of course, not knowing our exact needs (we think we'd like a work area of ~20x12in due to the possibility of doing large batches of dog tags but we've really got no idea how long a batch might take, smaller might be perfectly acceptable!) regarding laser power gauging price differences is difficult. Any feedback on these suppliers (or others you'd recommend) would be most welcome as we're a bit lost at sea on this. Please keep in mind, we're looking to make our first foray into this industry, so knowing that X company's tubes are made by Y company won't do us much good not knowing the reputation of Y company.

Another concern we have relates to additional equipment requirements. Various optional attachments are offered by different companies for their machines with some of them being clear as to their purpose and others being a mystery to outsiders like ourselves. Logically I think I can see the benefit of a chiller, I would imagine that it would help extend the life of the laser tube? Rotary attachments seem pretty self explanatory, though I have seen some companies offering different varieties (chuck vs roller???) and I'm not sure what would be best to consider for doing things like shot glasses. Lenses are another area of mystery, what makes a 4 inch lens different from a 1.5 inch lens and which would be best for the highest detail engraving? One company I talked to indicated that for anodized aluminum we needn't worry about things like a filtering system unless we start getting into acrylics, does this ring true for anodized (primary importance) and alternately for glassware? We're looking to start relatively small and work our way up as our needs expand, so we're trying to determine exactly what we'll need to get off the ground and are open to buying additional attachments later, but quality is of paramount importance to us so if buying a different lens or a specific software suite will assist us in producing a higher quality product we're okay with that.

Despite our complete lack of definite knowledge in this area we've been looking at a few different machines and were hoping to get some feedback on the machines we've been looking at. We were looking at the Pro20x12 CO2 laser from Full Spectrum Laser (link), the Category 1 Floyd 20x12 laser from Hurricane Lasers (link), 700 Series laser engraver from Legacy Lasers (link), the Rabbit RL_XX_6040 laser from Rabbit Laser USA (link), and the Zing 24 from Epilog (link}. From what we've been able to gather through our research, it sounds like Epilog makes a top notch product but they have pricing to match and we've got no idea if they're even in our price range, so any feedback on these various lasers, experience regarding pricing on lasers with no listed prices, and recommendations regarding lasers we ought to look into are more than welcome.

Finally, we've got no idea what the differences are from one software suite to another. We're both tech savvy so I'm not especially concerned with using a somewhat unintuitive software suite if it has good documentation and has discernible advantages over another suite, but at the same time one idea we've rather liked the sound of is the ability to just hit print from any application and output to the machine. We've really got no idea what our best bet is, so this is another area where your expertise would be invaluable.

I am sorry for making my first real post on this forum such a wall of text, but as you might imagine there is a sense of trepidation when considering investing a fairly sizable amount of money into an endeavor like this and we want to ensure that we're as well educated as possible. If you'd prefer to link us to a resource where we can learn all about laser wattage requirements and materials and the like we're more than happy to read up on the subject ourselves, its just been difficult finding resources. Thanks so much for your time, we ook forward to moving boldly into this new endeavor with your assistance!

Thanks,
Jon

Similar Threads:

• So you want to start an engraving business

[garrick]

All I can tell you is my experience. I have a 35 watt CO2 laser that has a bed that is about 18" x 24". I have a rotary attachment. We do a lot with it and if I had all the money in the world the main thing I would change is that I would get a higher wattage (100?). Higher wattage is great for speed. Next I would get larger area. However, now I have 4' x 8' CNC router that I use for larger items. Most of the laser stuff has always fit on the 18 x 24 bed and at one point I would easily have gotten a smaller machine like the Zing.

I use Corel for design software. We actually design in many programs such as AI and FlexiSign 10.5 Pro, but everything gets imported into Corel for the laser. I could easily only design in Corel for the laser if funds were tight.

If you are going to engrave on metal, I suggest that you get a really good rotary engraver too. That is what customers think of when they think of engraving.

There is a pretty steep learning curve to all of this and the real key is not what you can make or do...it is what you can sell. Find a base customer and make what they need...then expand from there.

[jbartus]

Trimmed

Garrick,

Thanks so much for your reply!

Where did you get your laser from, if I may ask? Have you used it with anodized aluminum at all?

As far as the rotary engraver suggestion I'll definitely keep it in mind, but for our initial product (the dog tags) we are specifically seeking laser engraving. We've got an initial product and customer base all scoped out, the talk of glassware and such is more along the lines of thinking about what we might do in the future if all goes well.

Thanks,
Jon

[garrick]

I have a used Accuris laser. We do anodized aluminum without issue. The problem with glass is that all glass is different. If you are doing the same thing all the time then you can get it down to a science, but glass is a tricky thing. When you etch glass you are making small chips...it is very hard to control that process. Also, glass is etched very lightly on the surface. Most people I sell to want it to stand out more like if you sandblast or rotary engrave.

[jbartus]

Trimed

Garrick,

Thanks again for your reply, I will have to keep that in mind if/when the time comes to do glassware.

So did I understand correctly that wattage is important only for speed, that is to say a 40 watt laser can do the same as a 100 watt laser it just takes longer? I am curious if there is an optimum as some of what I have read indicates that your engraving can blur if you use too much power, does that ring true?

Thanks again,
Jon

[garrick]

I'm sure there are things a 100 watt can do that a 40 can't...however, I have not had those issues...more about speed.

For me, too much power on a job will cause burning beyond where I want the laser to engrave...so that might look like blurring to some. Then you just reduce power or increase speed or both.

The key is to test each material.

[Exsecratio]

Hiya Jon,

100 watt for engraving is overkill and will lead to low power issues (the tubes have a minimum strike power of 12 - 15%, 15% of 100 watts is often too much for some materials for engraving.
Look at an 80 watt limit.

and one vendor I spoke to tried to talk us into a $2000 upgrade to get a 90 watt laser

$2,000 for a $650 upgrade! (90 watts is the peak power of the RECI tube not the nominal power so that starts alarm bells right away)

Suppliers wise:

Rabbit Laser (Ray Scott)

Fantastic machines, quality of the first order for a Chinese machine and Ray is a dam nice guy too.

Hurricane Laser (John Kaspar)

Same but the machines are Weike built rather than HX, great choice and another decent guy running the show.

Legacy Lasers (unsure)

Good machines again, I can't speak for their support as I have never purchased from them but I also haven't heard any negative reports.

FSL(FSE) Henry Lui

https://www.google.co.uk/#q=fsl+laser+problems&safe=off

Questionable support, Questionable business practices, low quality machines rebuilt to a high price with few features that cannot be had for 1/4 the price.

Epilog

Not worth going there for what you are looking at doing, great machines but 4x - 10x the price for the Chinese made equivalent.

FAQ's Buying A Laser

cheers

Dave

[Dylwad]

Might want to add vision engravers to your research http://www.visionengravers.com/ if you haven't checked them out already.

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[jbartus]

Trimmed

Garrick,

That makes sense. Thanks for your advice!

Jon

Trimmed

Dave,

To be fair they were tossing in a chiller and maybe some other stuff with it for the $2000 price difference, but yeah it struck me as likely being very wrong. Why so many 30-60w offerings on the market if you need 90 to do something so common as anodized aluminum? Didn't make sense. :/ Based on your company responses I'll leave it open for you to guess which vendor recommended this option to me, suffice to say they're out.

I was really enticed by Hurricane Laser's website, but their cited delivery date on their current units (December 3) would pretty much ruin any chance of meeting demand for Christmas, I should probably give them a call and see what they can do, if anything. I've seen Ray from Rabbit Laser posting around various places helping even with lasers that aren't his, certainly speaks good things about them, will definitely have to give them a call.

Thanks for the useful feedback regarding the vendors, I'll take a look at the FAQ you linked

Regards,
Jon

Trimmed

Hi Dylwad,

I came across their website at one point but I got the definite feeling that laser engraving was more of a... side enterprise for them, I couldn't find any details regarding models available or anything like that for laser engravers, though rotary engravers were all over the place. Is there somewhere I missed with models listed?

Jon

[Dylwad]

I think they are the type of company that works with you to fill your needs based on what type of business you get in to. Where your paying for their support as well the machine and software, to get results without a huge learning curve. Might want to give them a call.

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[jbartus]

I think they are the type of company that works with you to fill your needs based on what type of business you get in to. Where your paying for their support as well the machine and software, to get results without a huge learning curve. Might want to give them a call.

Sent from tapatalk

Dylwad,

I'll keep them in mind, thanks.

Jon

[Exsecratio]

Hiya Jon,

Ray has the HX King Rabbit series, I have had a number of the same type of machines from my UK supplier (HPC Lasers Ltd) and they are great, as to Ray himself, Chris at HPC didn't have any lens barrels in for a job I was working on (experimentation on a few new ideas) so a quick email to Ray and 4 days later (bearing in mind I'm 5,000 miles away) they turned up on my doorstep
He loves what he does, you can see that by his posts on forums and the feedback he gets from customers.

If anybody is telling you that you need 80+ watts to engrave anodised aluminium they are talking plain crap! 35 watts will do a better than average job on the same thing without the issues of power density being too high on an 80 watt RECI and with short focal length lens's (38mm / 25mm)you will get very good definition (smaller spot size). The FAQ I linked has more info on the lens's, mirrors, compressor requirements and such like

best wishes

Dave

[jbartus]

Hiya Jon,

Ray has the HX King Rabbit series, I have had a number of the same type of machines from my UK supplier (HPC Lasers Ltd) and they are great, as to Ray himself, Chris at HPC didn't have any lens barrels in for a job I was working on (experimentation on a few new ideas) so a quick email to Ray and 4 days later (bearing in mind I'm 5,000 miles away) they turned up on my doorstep
He loves what he does, you can see that by his posts on forums and the feedback he gets from customers.

If anybody is telling you that you need 80+ watts to engrave anodised aluminium they are talking plain crap! 35 watts will do a better than average job on the same thing without the issues of power density being too high on an 80 watt RECI and with short focal length lens's (38mm / 25mm)you will get very good definition (smaller spot size). The FAQ I linked has more info on the lens's, mirrors, compressor requirements and such like

best wishes

Dave

Dave,

Ray sounds like a stand up guy, I'll definitely be checking out what they have to offer, and thanks again for that link!

Cheers,
Jon

[Bigbird48]

ok my 2 cents worth. what machine to buy. You want to do dog tags anodized alum correct. this is your basic business. Right. a 40watt co2 laser will work fine for that. Good quality, good support, good machine, talk to Ray Scott Rabbit Laser like I said before.

[MetalWorxMFG]

I am new to laser systems and currently looking for a laser that will mark black on flat stainless. So naturally after some searches this thread caught my eye.

I have a few questions on brands and capabilities.

Several liked Ray Scott at Rabbit.....however his websites states this......"We are testing other metals as we encounter them. Still ... Aluminum, Copper, brass, silver, gold, ... NOT engravable." So I am a little confused on how this is suited for the aluminum engraving that was previously mentioned? Is it because the aluminum is anodized already?

Thanks

[Bigbird48]

A co2 laser will not cut metal, or mark most metals unless you use a chemical called cermark. Some people say cermark will work on stainless some say it won't. I guess it depends on the power of your laser and type of stainless you have. A co2 will mark anodized Alum. It will also burn off most coatings on metal like paint. I have in the past painted metal then burned a design buy burning off the paint and leaving the bare metal. hope that helps a little

[underthetire]

A CO2 can certainly cut metal. Our little 200 watt cuts thin stuff all day, while our bigger 2800watt cuts 1/8 sheet all day. Granted, a yag is better for cutting and welding.

Sent from my G-Tab Quantum using Tapatalk

[MetalWorxMFG]

Cermark is definitely a possibility. What would be needed to mark stainless with a good black mark without coating the stainless first?

[Bigbird48]

I would suggest reading up on cermark
TherMark Laser Marking - CerMark LMM6000 Black Laser Marking Ink for Metal


Stainless Steel Metal Marking

Until recently, marking stainless steel with a low powered CO2 laser was very difficult to do. The problem is that most of the CO2 energy is reflected from the metal surface and only a small amount is absorbed, providing a very faint or non-existent mark. In the last few years a couple of different companies have introduced products that allow low powered CO2 lasers to create a very dark, permanent mark on stainless steel. The products are known as Laser Marking Materials (LMM) and go by the common name of Cermark, or Thermark. The LMM is sprayed onto non-coated stainless steel from a spray can (just like spray paint!). The LMM is allowed to dry for a couple of minutes before it is ready to engrave.

When the laser engraves on the Cermark, it permanently bonds the material to the metal, resulting in a permanent black mark. After engraving, the metal is washed with water to remove the excess spray. This simple process is often used for marking tools, medical instruments, and industrial parts with bar codes and serial numbers. LMM will also work with some other metals, but we suggest you test out any other material you are considering using to ensure the mark is acceptable. It is our experience that stainless steel is the most predictable metal for use with LMM.




Will a YAG Laser work on any types of non-metallic materials?

Unlike a CO2 laser, a YAG laser is compatible with only a limited number of materials. Because of its small wavelength, a YAG laser can mark many different types of metal, and a few plastics, but its effectiveness on standard CO2 products (wood, rubber, acrylic, etc) is almost non-existent. You will typically only find YAG lasers in industrial applications, with personalization applications limited mostly to high volume marking of products like ballpoint pens.

The reason that so many people are excited about the LMM discussed earlier is that there are a lot of stainless steel products that require laser marking and marking with a YAG laser is very expensive.