What is best for Artistic Milling

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    Default What is best for Artistic Milling

    Hi,

    First off I want to say I have been browsing around the forums for a couple of days and its amazing all the information there is here.

    However, I haven't really found an answer to my question..

    I'm an artist/sculptor working mostly digitally, I have traditionally used 3d printing to bring make my work physical, but lately I have become increasingly curious about milling and the possibilities it offers. I have also become more and more disappointed with what 3d printing has been able to do for me in regards to hype vs actual results.

    What interests me about CNC milling is the possibility of having a nearly finished piece right out of the mill, in a material that I would consider sellable, such as wood or metal, with only minor finishing steps done after the milling (ie. applying lacker for wood or anodizing for aluminum).

    I am thinking of taking my first plunge into milling and getting a first machine. Looking at entry level systems I have seen kits like the shapeoko 3 or other machines like the nomad 883, carvey (which apparently hasn't shipped yet) which look 'mainstream' and are relatively cheap and others like the TechnoCNC bench top mill, Roland MDX 40 or 540, or even an entry level Tormach which might appear more specialized but look to have really nice features.

    The software is another component which I am unsure about, as I mostly work with full 3d .STL files, and I have heard it may or may not be an easy feat to use these for milling. And it seems each machine offers their own software which can make this easier to do.

    I know that CNC milling has inherent limitations in regards to part complexity as opposed to 3d printing, but I believe I have several pieces that are millable, and I would like to try to do them in these different materials that CNC offers.

    My questions are:
    1. Are the entry level systems mentioned above (shapeoko, carvey, others you would recommend) good enough to make something artistic, not necessarily caring about precision or repeatability? If so, are there others you would recommend over these?
    2. For ease of use, broad range of materials hopefully including aluminum, an option for a 4th axis, and taking into account the use case, with a budget under $10k, what system would you recommend, if any?

    Any general guidance would be greatly appreciated..

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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    1) These machines aren't really suitable for carving .stl files in aluminum. They are just not rigid enough.
    Also keep in mind that these machines are not very fast, and 3D machining of .stl files can take a very long time. To get a finished product off of the machine, you need to use very small tools, and make multiple passes very close together. It's not uncommon for 3D carvings to take 10-20 hours, depending on the size of the product, and the level of detail required.

    2) What is the largest parts you want to make? this will have a large effect on the answer.

    Also, I'm not sure you can expect to see a finished quality aluminum carving straight from the machine. They will likely have a lot of tool marks and require a lot of hand cleanup, if you want it to look like a "polished" part.

    As for software for creating toolpaths from .stl files, look at Cut3D, MeshCAM, and DeskProto.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    I'll add this site:
    Guerrilla guide to CNC machining, mold making, and resin casting
    This helped me understand a lot of details about the software.

    Steve



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    And it seems each machine offers their own software which can make this easier to do.
    Not sure I'm understanding this sentence. Most mills and routers run g-code, that's why we need CAM software.

    Every machine is a compromise of some kind, a good mill is probably a lousy router and vice versa.
    Work envelope, spindle speeds, cutting speeds (speed of movement) , required rigidity, etc.
    If the work is small enough a fast mill with an bolt on high speed spindle may be the best bet.
    Large mills have large price tags.

    sajurcaju
    That Guerrilla guide is one of the most interesting crash courses I've ever seen.
    Bookmarked, thanks.

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Deskproto looks good. Are you looking for a router or mill?



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    I do a lot of artistic machine-carving, and I'm also a distributor of some small CNC machines and software packages. I don't think much of those "entry level" machines you mention. Techno is out of the machine business, the Roland MDX-40 won't cut aluminum (and the 540 is out of your price range) but the Tormach is a solid machine. I have some others on my Computersculpture site you may want to consider. None of these machines will produce very large pieces, but since you're still on the learning curve, it's good to start small and work your way up. Above a certain size, it won't make sense to try to carve things directly in metal (you can carve models in wax and mold them for casting), although if you want to make large wood parts that's more feasible with a big router you can save up for or build yourself.

    Using CNC to carve artistic parts from STL files is perfectly possible, and if you take your time, using toolpaths with very small step-overs, you can produce parts that don't have a lot of distracting toolmarks. But like Ger said, it can take many hours of carving time to do that. DeskProto is a good choice for artistic parts, since it won't bog down with big STL files. And realize that cutting things out of metal takes a lot longer than with softer materials.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    to milling real metal sculptures... you probably need delcam powermill or so..
    thinking on likely a standing figure with stretched arms..
    that level you cant achieve under 10K

    for 10 K I think you can mill coins..

    even small sculptures of aluminum wont work like wooden stuff.. with wood simply clean the left places..
    with metal you have to go into the worst corners..

    what is confusing here, you can cut 2d shapes with an average router, but achieving a good surface you need milling machine.... cast iron machine and rigid..



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Tormach just came out with a small machine I am sure it can cut aluminum fine I do not know the price but there are others you can afford that will do the job one is Charter Oak Automation | CNC Controlled Machinery for Industrial and Serious Hobbyists I used to know the original owner I believe his son's took over a new name for sure but looks cheap. There are tons just get your price range down and research a lot.



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    First of, thanks so much for the answers everyone. It really makes me feel welcome to this new world

    @Gerry - Thanks. I am 'somewhat' aware of the long milling times to achieve a nice finish. This at the moment is not a large issue, since these will be one off, artistic pieces, not production runs, it can take a long time to mill a piece (ie. a couple of weeks) and it would still be acceptable, so long as the finish is top notch.

    Makes sense that the DIY kits wouldn't be much good at doing parts in aluminum, although some claim they 'eat it for breakfast'. Aluminum right now is a secondary concern until I get ore familiar with the technology and have made some pieces in other materials.

    The size of the parts - that is a good question. I have parts of many sizes. The initial type of piece that got me interested in milling is like a huge crumpled sheet of paper. Think of a lightly crumpled sheet of paper that was 6 x 4 feet (by say 2 inches deep), I would like to mill that in wood or plastic as an artistic sculpture. I am aware that is very big to do on a single piece, I am perfectly willing to do it multiple pieces, as many as it takes. I guess for this particular project the smallest possible size would be about 16 x 16 x 4. For my other pieces the XY stays the same, but since they are more '3d' I would need about the same hight so 16 x 16 x16. (for example another idea is to mill flower vases and such out of wood or possibly aluminum). Anything bigger from there the better.

    @sajucaju - thanks for the guide, I had a quick browse and it looks quite interesting. I will give it a thorough read in the coming days.

    @cyclestart - thanks for your input. What I mean is, some machines, the DIY kits for example, come with their proprietary software that accepts STLs and talks directly with the machine for example (although I have no idea if they are high quality or what settings you are able to modify to achieve better results, etc.). While others ie. more professional types, seem to require 3rd party software to get the tooling paths for a 3d model. While others still I am still unsure exactly what they do or the extent of their capabilities (for example Tormacht).

    I agree with your general take. I am trying to figure out exactly which compromises would work best for my use case, which doesn't seem to be the most common use case for CNCing.

    @Tormachmaster - great question! Until you mentioned I wasn't even aware of that distinction among different machines. I did a bit more research, and it seems for what I currently have in mind a router would make more sense, since I don't really intent to cut hard metals at the moment, and work area and cost are a big consideration. That being said I am also interested at some point on a 4th axis, to do things like vases or bowls. Is this possible with a router style mill?

    Looking deeper into routers I found CAMasters and the Stinger (Stinger I | Small CNC Router | CAMaster) which seems very, very nice, from a work area / price perspective, and from what I can tell they look like solid and tested machines. Does anyone have an opinion on these? What would be the tradeoffs with a machine like this (no aluminum perhaps? they don't mention it in their site), it almost seems to good to be true compared to all the others I have seen, especially on a 'professional' level.

    Deskproto looks interesting. It is just a software package for generating tool paths from STLs correct? I have also heard Meshcam is good. Any thoughts?

    @Awerby - thanks for your input. I was also looking at the Tormach but even their entry level with the options you actually need to do anything pretty much maxes out my budget and unfortunately the build area is too small for me to be useful. I would be curious to know what you thought of the router above.

    I guess where I am getting at right now is - the routers look interesting, but are there any downsides I am not seeing? Aluminum would be great, but for my first machine I would trade it for build size and affordability. Is there any machine that has a big 4th axis (ie. able to handle cylinders 15 inches or more in diameter)? Would these be specialized 'lathe' machines?

    Thanks everyone again for their speedy input, especially during this time of the year (happy holidays!)



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    I think the size you're looking at takes aluminum machining out of the equation. Machines that large are just not designed for cutting aluminum, unless you spend several hundred thousand dollars.

    Camaster's are good machines. At the upper end of hobby class machines. Many small businesses use Camaster machines.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Milling Robot - CAD/CAM for Robots

    check this out..
    the bunny in the cart made by a german company... they got installed a robotic arm about 40K

    for artistic stuff the metalprinting the simplest.. it relatively cost, but compared with milling out of a chunk it will be affordable
    but it is limited to a 16x16 cube approximately..
    yet any weird shape can be printed, that already you cant mill..

    first i think you need to get familiar what possible to make with a router, with a five axis, or with a robotic arm..

    for practicing you can start with a couple hundred cost a small desktop machine, to see what you can really accomplish on a router..
    when you try tpo buy a router with a decent gantry height, that will cost eventually like a used robotarm, what worth a lot more for your work..

    ================================================== ==========================
    from preparating side, you might make it of clay first scan it then mill..
    however the direct modeling same effective..

    so first just look around what possibilities around..



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    It sounds like you want a big industrial router with a 4th axis, if you're planning to do large sculptures like the ones you describe. Unfortunately, those are out of your price range, if you want to buy a new one. (Used machines do show up at auction occasionally, but buyers need to beware of hidden problems). The "Stinger" you point out above would get you part of the way there - it's a medium-duty machine but at least it's made in the USA, so you have some chance of getting support with it. I wouldn't expect it to handle aluminum very well, though. On the other hand, they do offer some kind of rotary "lathe" indexer, although there aren't any pictures of it I could find on their site. There's no way it would allow you to cut things that were 15" in diameter, though. For that you'd need a custom machine built, or (as Victor suggests above) a robot arm that could move all the way around a revolving workpiece.

    MeshCam and DeskProto are similar; both take in STL files and output G-code that will carve them using a CNC machine. DeskProto has more features, though, like continuous 4th axis toolpaths and "wizards" that simplify the setup of various projects like 2-sided milling or engraving on a 3D part.

    I don't think Victor has actually priced out direct 3D metal printing; if he finds it "affordable" he must be really rich...

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Andrew...

    imagine a statue of stainless steel... at least a mill need ... no router will handle..
    companies that can deal with a stainless steel staue from a solid chunk they wont work for 30-40 dollar per hour

    a small size statue 8-12 inches might takes days to making out of a chunk.. compared with that price the printing can be said affordable..

    with printing you can ask a thin wallthickness , and printing is going by weight..

    and lastly... a sculpture not priced like an average shopmade part..


    a simple 8x12 bronze plaque can cost 2000-3000 versus you cut a bronze plate that size you cant ask same price..
    ================================================== ==

    in my opinion, with a 4 axis machine he going to struggling only.. not everything made of foam, that you can glue...

    robotarms already can deal with metal and marble too..

    another thing with a robotarm you can make a 10 feet tall statue about 4-6 feet dia... not 15 inches...



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    heres a sample.. we can say artistic...
    now, I like ot see suggestion, which one of 4 axis router will makes this?
    say 18 inch size.. of a solid woodblock example?

    or say of aluminum... in one piece?

    how much it could cost milling out of solid aluminum... any of those routers would make it?

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What is best for Artistic Milling-a596065e7229e54cceb9b0c2b4c6e95f-1-jpg  


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Hey guys,

    Thanks for your feedback.

    I agree, a robot arm is my dream (I have been dreaming of it for some years now). Since yes it could handle almost any complexity and material (marble would be so nice). I had no idea a used one can be had for $40k (I thought new ones were in the millions and used one in the hundreds of Ks).

    This is actually what first got me interested in the possibilities of milling (and specifically a robot arm). It is one. solid. piece. of. marble. And completely flawless. It didn't say it outright in the description of the piece, but I can't think of any other way it was made but by a robot arm. I saw it at an exhibition in NYC a few years ago and have been dreaming about it ever since - http://www.exhibitfiles.org/dfile2/R...ble-marmer.jpg
    Something to aspire to.

    But, I have to start somewhere

    I come from the world of 3d printing, so I'm aware of all the different technologies that exist for this (DMLS, Voxeljet, CUSP, etc). And I would agree with Andrew, it is not cost effective. I would actually argue that as you increase in size it becomes less and less cost effective. For milling the price goes up by the cube for the raw material and you have increases in machine time. For printing the price goes up by the cube for the total. It gets real expensive, real fast. Also severe imitations in build size with most technologies (voxeljet being the exception here).

    Machining in foam and casting is definelty a good option, but again I was looking to skip extra steps and go as direct as possible from the machine to a finished product. If I were going that route I would probably print in PLA from a cheap FDM and cast directly from it. Casting, however, is expensive.

    Im realizing no single machine at the moment will fulfill all my needs, even if I were to have a significantly larger budget. The way I see it I have to choose between - large flattish wooden pieces, small cubed aluminum pieces, cylinder type pieces*

    Speaking of the last, is there any machine that would allow me to mill something like a large flower vases or bowls? I have something like this in mind, but on a larger scale (and I would need to hollow it from one side for it to function as a vase) -

    This would be great, as it would allow me to create something that is very 'commercial' but still apply uniqueness to it through the mill, even if its only in wood. Something like an 'automatic wood turner'. Does such a thing exist??

    So for the large flattish wooden pieces it seems Camasters would be a good choice (or something like it).

    What would be the top pick for small aluminum pieces? And if Im going that route, would be great if I could do stainless as well.

    What about a large lathe aka 'automatic wood turner'?

    Thanks!



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    A cnczone member made life size chess pieces on a CAMaster. The pieces are made in slices, so assembly is required.
    Link: THE CHESS PLAYERS - James McGrew

    I'm not sure how that table was made. Amazing piece of work.

    Anyone who says "It only goes together one way" has no imagination.


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    for your need and small figures, and max aluminum, no hard steel...
    theres a very flexible small machine

    it wont work with large pieces... however you can make virtually everything with... in a limited size....

    Pocket NC

    some video by its makers...



    try to contact them...

    programming, modeling they used autodesk fusion 360.. you pay 40 dollar and start to use..

    also on turbosquid theres a free modeling program you can animate even or posing...

    blender, dazstudio also free..

    there are one more 5 axis for soft materials and that is a little larger machine..

    5axismaker | 5 axis cnc machine

    this machine using rhino, and grasshopper plugin makes the 5 axis toolpath..

    there are a huge gap between these two and commercial machines.. start with these then you can step up for a more expenses machine..

    watch out for ebay .... I saw 5 axis termwood for 70 a relative large machine 4x8 feet and 30 in high work cube..

    when you try to mill parts and assembly, you ending up at least 2-3 times more manufacturing time.. compared with 5 axis or robotarm...

    don't hesitate to buy a small Chinese router for 500... you can start immediately experimenting..
    you wont work with flat pieces you will work in 3d most time...



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    victorofga


    I searched a couple of pictures, I was assisting my friend work...
    one of them sliced, the gargoyle and the skull made of parts..

    the problem is, you can part up a model and glue.. however the invested time at least 2-3 times more than you would use 5 axis, or better robotarm..
    lso thi s head not possible slicing on a reasonable way

    that big skull took very much time... with a robotarm possible one day.. and that makes a huge difference..

    my friend has a router with 18 in gantry height.. plus he can remove the table for rotary work up to 36 inches.. but it slow...

    head about 5 meter, the fgargoyle small only 28 in..

    the process itself..

    the router , a fast going with 1000 ipm.. a robotarm makes 10 times faster..

    so be careful how you invest..

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What is best for Artistic Milling-ready-jpg   What is best for Artistic Milling-gargoyle-jpg   What is best for Artistic Milling-skull-jpg  
    Last edited by victorofga; 12-29-2015 at 08:47 AM.


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    You could invest a lot of money in a complex machine and still not work as large as you may wish.
    Have you considered hand tools and casting?



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    [QUOTE=ikatz001;1807788]

    I agree, a robot arm is my dream (I have been dreaming of it for some years now). Since yes it could handle almost any complexity and material (marble would be so nice). I had no idea a used one can be had for $40k (I thought new ones were in the millions and used one in the hundreds of Ks).

    [I've seen them going a lot cheaper than that, but there are lots of different kinds of robot arms. Some are only good for painting or welding, things where there aren't any cutting forces to deal with. And they tend to have complicated proprietary drive systems, which take some figuring out. The kinematics of these arms are different from the regular Cartesian machines we're used to, and complicated post-processors are required to get the (expensive 5-axis) CAM software to work with them. But all that aside, they can make it possible to carve things that regular Cartesian machines can't do.]

    This is actually what first got me interested in the possibilities of milling (and specifically a robot arm). It is one. solid. piece. of. marble. And completely flawless. It didn't say it outright in the description of the piece, but I can't think of any other way it was made but by a robot arm. I saw it at an exhibition in NYC a few years ago and have been dreaming about it ever since - http://www.exhibitfiles.org/dfile2/R...ble-marmer.jpg
    Something to aspire to.

    But, I have to start somewhere

    [There are companies with robot arm carving machines which can do things like that for you. But they don't work cheap. Friends of mine who've looked into it found it was cheaper to send a model to China and have it scaled up and carved in stone by hand. Of course, then they had to pay to ship these heavy stone objects back home.]

    I come from the world of 3d printing, so I'm aware of all the different technologies that exist for this (DMLS, Voxeljet, CUSP, etc). And I would agree with Andrew, it is not cost effective. I would actually argue that as you increase in size it becomes less and less cost effective. For milling the price goes up by the cube for the raw material and you have increases in machine time. For printing the price goes up by the cube for the total. It gets real expensive, real fast. Also severe imitations in build size with most technologies (voxeljet being the exception here).

    [One route you might look into is having a mold printed, rather than the piece itself. It's a lot more cost-effective to print in sand than in atomized metal. And since there's no requirement to be able to pull a pattern out of the mold (it's a one-off) the configurations can be as complex as you want. This company offers a service making custom sand molds: Hoosier Pattern Inc. All you need to do is fill it with the metal of your choice.]

    Machining in foam and casting is definelty a good option, but again I was looking to skip extra steps and go as direct as possible from the machine to a finished product.

    [Machining in wax could save the mold-making and wax-casting step, and give a better surface than foam.]

    If I were going that route I would probably print in PLA from a cheap FDM and cast directly from it. Casting, however, is expensive.

    [It isn't inherently that expensive; it's really the hand work that goes into it that boosts the price. PLA is supposed to burn out pretty well. If you give the foundry a piece that's ready to go, and don't make them do the metal-finishing for you, the price goes down a lot.]

    Im realizing no single machine at the moment will fulfill all my needs, even if I were to have a significantly larger budget. The way I see it I have to choose between - large flattish wooden pieces, small cubed aluminum pieces, cylinder type pieces*

    Speaking of the last, is there any machine that would allow me to mill something like a large flower vases or bowls? I have something like this in mind, but on a larger scale (and I would need to hollow it from one side for it to function as a vase) -

    [Lathes are restricted to making pieces that are radially symmetrical, which is a big limitation for sculptors. I built a deep-Z 4-axis CNC machine that can carve large parts (36" diameter, 48" long) around the periphery, but the hollowing step would be a problem. If I wanted to make vessels like that, it would make more sense to create a master and and mold it, machining a plug to create the interior volume of the casting.]

    This would be great, as it would allow me to create something that is very 'commercial' but still apply uniqueness to it through the mill, even if its only in wood. Something like an 'automatic wood turner'. Does such a thing exist??

    So for the large flattish wooden pieces it seems Camasters would be a good choice (or something like it).

    [Remember that the tool length is your limitation on a machine like that. Rotary carving tools max out at 6", and shorter is better. You not only have to reach the bottom area to be carved, but you need to be able to retract above the highest part and traverse the workpiece.]

    What would be the top pick for small aluminum pieces? And if Im going that route, would be great if I could do stainless as well.

    [How small? You could do aluminum pieces up to about 11" long by 3" diameter on one of the little Taig mills I sell, with the rotary table attachment. Stainless would take forever, though.]

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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What is best for Artistic Milling

What is best for Artistic Milling