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  1. #21
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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Hey,

    Those chess pieces look really cool. However I agree with Victor here, making them in slices and gluing them is not an ideal workflow. The pieces will be judged on production quality so seeing a seam is out of the question.

    I agree I can spend a huge amount of money and still not have an ideal work envelop (up until a robot arm I guess). However hand tools defeat the purpose, and yes casting is an option, but the idea here it to have pieces be as ready as possible out of the machine in order to reduce costs..

    Victor, I agree a robot arm is the ideal solution, however I think that is out of range right now, and also not something I would start with. I would like to get a small affordable machine to start making things with and gain experience, and take it from there.

    Those two machines you mention look very interesting. The pocket NC I was aware of but is too small for my needs, and also looks like they finished their kickstarter a short time ago and are just shipping those orders.. so seems a bit early to get into the game with them. The 5axis maker looks like a very promising solution, really ideal I have to say, second only to the robot arm from the ones I have come across.. if they are real that is. They were also a kickstarter that finished over a year ago and its unclear whether they have even shipped those units. I did a bit of searching online and was unable to find much info about them, either good or bad. But no videos of users using the machine, no reviews, really nothing.. so a bit suspect. Which is such a shame because their machine looks really, really nice from a creative possibilities point of view. I wrote to them and see if I get any answers as to their current status.

    Andrew,

    Agree, robot arm not a good choice for a first machine even if budget allowed.

    Indeed farming out the job to a 3rd party is prohibitive right now. But is a good option in case I get commissioned work or I manage to sell something from a render. Btw, do you know the names of any of these companies that would do a carving with a robot arm for me? I searched online some time ago but didn't really get anywhere.. any info you have would be great.

    The sand molds are a great idea. I didn't know about Hoosier but had been in talks directly with ExOne before. They are relatively inexpensive. And you are absolutely right the expensive thing about the casting is the manual labor that goes into finishing the piece, not the casting itself. From quotes I have asked from artistic foundries casting in stainless, polishing to a mirror finish for example can increase the cost 3-4x. But that is exactly it, if I just cast the piece its no good to me how it comes out of the cast, I actually need it finished really nice because how it looks is everything in this case. So again we're back to square one. The printing/casting/finishing is something I have already more or less figured out for my higher end pieces (see attached pic as example of table I cast recently in aluminum. Even with all the work that went into it up close you can still see lots of imperfections which I'm not happy about).

    The idea here is to be able to sell something close to 'mass market', that would cost me less than $100 to make, and can sell for a couple of hundred. (A stainless steel sculpture for example is in the thousands or tens of thousands), that would still allow me creative freedom and the ability to work from 3d and make each piece unique if I wanted to. Milling wood (or plastic and finishing maybe) seems to come pretty close to this.

    I wasn't aware lathes were restricted to radial symmetry, thanks for pointing that out. What I meant then was a 4th axis. Specifically a '4-axis with a deep Z'. What you built seems to be exactly what I need for many of my pieces. The dimensions are more than enough for most of the things I could imagine. I have been unable to find anything like that commercially available however. Are there any companies that do it? From the fact that you built yours Im afraid I know the answer. Would you be able to build me one? Im not too worried about the hollowing. I have a friend that does a lot of wooden furniture that I think would be able to take care of it.

    Im not sure what you mean by 'it would make more sense to create a master and and mold it, machining a plug to create the interior volume of the casting'. Are you talking about making the vase out of metal? Does that mean that your machine can carve a cylinder made of metal? I was under the impression we were talking about wood or other soft materials here.

    I agree the tool length is my limitation. That's why I've been looking around for a rotary that can do more than 6", but as you point out, I haven't been able to find it much more than that. Why do you say the shorter the better? How did you get to 36"?

    For the small aluminum pieces I think the 11" by 3" is still too small.. that's why I'm leaving those in the back burner for now..

    What is best for Artistic Milling-img_2668-jpg



  2. #22
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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    probably you need several different method.. case by case...
    you also can not void hand finishing.. artwork, in 99 percent, always individual..

    artwork nature is ""surprising"" far form commercial products..

    stainless steel is very hard, because casting result a material you just can not handle..
    within machining the cast stainless, quikly dull tools and causing buildups, damaging tool, and surface quality gone..

    with robotarm, I just tried to call your attention, for this type work the most useful.. of course you can not start with just at fingertip...
    ================================================== ==========

    from a practical view... at first works you need to find the proper shops that can create affordable for you..
    the picture you posted, you can create a waxprinted or milled pattern then lost wax casing you can make it..

    very roughly a bust can cost around 4-5K a standing figure about 15-20K
    it is very rough estimate..
    so the table on the pic... could cost also 10-15... due the level of complexity...

    that's why I like to think, first works you make by hand, then slowly you can invest..

    ================================================== ==================
    your issue first the size that can be manufactured, and second is the flexibility...
    additionally you facing with the financial side just like any business on their own level..

    I show you one example folks using for large foam stuff... it is somewhere on the very bottom of price..

    SALE CNC Router Milling, CNC Laser, CNC plasma machine, China, Servo Motor Drive, UK, USA, Italy, Spain, Thailand

    this has toolchanger, what is not necessary for you really... the table can be built lower and you can put in a large rotary ...
    sink the floor under machine you can get a 5 feet dia rotary.. that way..



  3. #23
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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    look for companies like this..
    since their everyday work closely to art, or even artwork, they can show you practical solutions..

    Custom Props & Sculpture for Scenic/Themed Environments from Chisel 3D



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Quote Originally Posted by ikatz001 View Post
    Hey,


    Agree, robot arm not a good choice for a first machine even if budget allowed.

    [Frankly, they scare me. Regular CNC machines are dangerous enough, but they won't reach out and whack you.]

    Indeed farming out the job to a 3rd party is prohibitive right now. But is a good option in case I get commissioned work or I manage to sell something from a render. Btw, do you know the names of any of these companies that would do a carving with a robot arm for me? I searched online some time ago but didn't really get anywhere.. any info you have would be great.

    [I know of a place in Italy: ]

    The sand molds are a great idea. I didn't know about Hoosier but had been in talks directly with ExOne before. They are relatively inexpensive. And you are absolutely right the expensive thing about the casting is the manual labor that goes into finishing the piece, not the casting itself. From quotes I have asked from artistic foundries casting in stainless, polishing to a mirror finish for example can increase the cost 3-4x. But that is exactly it, if I just cast the piece its no good to me how it comes out of the cast, I actually need it finished really nice because how it looks is everything in this case. So again we're back to square one.

    [Yes, if you really need a mirror polish on everything. But there are other finishes that will also work that aren't as labor-intensive.]

    The printing/casting/finishing is something I have already more or less figured out for my higher end pieces (see attached pic as example of table I cast recently in aluminum. Even with all the work that went into it up close you can still see lots of imperfections which I'm not happy about).

    [That's pretty cool. Everything real is going to have imperfections; get used to it.]

    The idea here is to be able to sell something close to 'mass market', that would cost me less than $100 to make, and can sell for a couple of hundred. (A stainless steel sculpture for example is in the thousands or tens of thousands), that would still allow me creative freedom and the ability to work from 3d and make each piece unique if I wanted to. Milling wood (or plastic and finishing maybe) seems to come pretty close to this.

    I wasn't aware lathes were restricted to radial symmetry, thanks for pointing that out. What I meant then was a 4th axis. Specifically a '4-axis with a deep Z'. What you built seems to be exactly what I need for many of my pieces. The dimensions are more than enough for most of the things I could imagine. I have been unable to find anything like that commercially available however. Are there any companies that do it? From the fact that you built yours Im afraid I know the answer. Would you be able to build me one?

    [Sorry, but if you want to build one I'll be happy to stand on the sidelines and offer advice...]

    Im not too worried about the hollowing. I have a friend that does a lot of wooden furniture that I think would be able to take care of it.

    Im not sure what you mean by 'it would make more sense to create a master and and mold it, machining a plug to create the interior volume of the casting'. Are you talking about making the vase out of metal? Does that mean that your machine can carve a cylinder made of metal? I was under the impression we were talking about wood or other soft materials here.

    [I was talking about making a master in wood, wax, or something else that's soft and relatively cheap, but casting the actual vases in concrete or something. similar. The "plug" would function as a removable core, so the thing could be hollow.]

    I agree the tool length is my limitation. That's why I've been looking around for a rotary that can do more than 6", but as you point out, I haven't been able to find it much more than that. Why do you say the shorter the better? How did you get to 36"?

    [Carving with a 6" tool means that you have about 5" sticking out, which is a lot. There's a lot of stress on a tool like that, so it can easily break. Also, cut quality suffers with a longer tool - there's more leverage to amplify tool chatter, and more deflection. Any machinist will tell you to cut your part with the shortest tool that will work. I made my machine capable of rotating a piece that was 36" in diameter because I wanted to be able to cut all the way around a large part, not because I thought I'd be able to carve everything I could imagine that would fit within that space.]

    For the small aluminum pieces I think the 11" by 3" is still too small.. that's why I'm leaving those in the back burner for now..

    What is best for Artistic Milling-img_2668-jpg
    [Actually, that's the sweet spot for metal carving. Much larger than that, and you really want to consider other means of achieving the same thing. Just pricing out the big aluminum cylinders you'd need to start with to carve sculpture in aluminum is enough to start you thinking about alternatives. For instance, you can get one that's 6" x 36" for about $600 plus shipping: Order Aluminum 6061 Round in Small Quantities at OnlineMetals.com How much do you really think you could sell whatever you carved out of it for? It would make more sense to carve the thing in wax, make a mold and cast it.

    If you want to actually make something instead of dream about stuff that's cool but you could never afford, it wouldn't hurt to get a small but sturdy machine like the Taig and try out the process on a reasonable scale. That would give you a more realistic sense of what's possible than any number of internet inquiries.]

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Andrew art is priced differently than regular shopwork..
    yet, larger pieces need to be cast..

    if you looking for auctions sometime you can see 40 dollar worth canvas sells for tens of thoushands..

    robotarms within installation placed in a "workcell"" , into a closed area.. while door open machine can not start..
    also they are restricted with stops at least on the main turn ..



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Quote Originally Posted by victorofga View Post
    Andrew art is priced differently than regular shopwork..
    yet, larger pieces need to be cast..

    [It's also a lot harder to sell art than anything else. Ask me how I know this...]

    if you looking for auctions sometime you can see 40 dollar worth canvas sells for tens of thoushands..

    [Or not, as the case may be. With sculpture that you have to spend a lot of money to produce, the economics of producing it on speculation can be daunting.]

    robotarms within installation placed in a "workcell"" , into a closed area.. while door open machine can not start..
    also they are restricted with stops at least on the main turn ..
    [Yes, that's a good way to set them up. But when you get one, that doesn't necessarily come with all that, and you have to figure out how to make it work before putting that enclosure together with all those interlocks, they can be dangerous. ]

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    lol I agree im a bit scared of them as well.

    Victor thanks for the links. They look pretty interesting I will check them out.

    Andrew you are probably right, anything larger than that in metal im better off with other means such as casting. However for other materials I think I have a good shot at making quality products close to straight off the machine (ie. wood and plastics with nice finishes).

    I have a question - has anyone heard of ShopBot?? They seem to have some nice routers with deep Z (12") as well as what looks like a decent benchtop one. But what really caught my attention was their 5 axis machine - 5-axis CNC Router

    Needless to say, this opens a lot of possibilities for me (almost like a robot arm At $40k its out of the budget right now but seems like something that would be possible in the future. They have a couple of customer stories so people seem to be using them, but I couldnt find much info over here.

    Can you guys tell me what you think of them in terms of components / build quality? Anyone have any experience with them?



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    I cant help with shopbot... I never owned one..

    however I cqan make suggestion, what I used for something like statue.. it is not a real statue.. that would cost, and not so many coming to ask....

    this was a job, made for locally for a fun center owner.. this figure greeting customers..

    paint work is by my friend.. I cant paint..


    this figure already 5 in thick...

    in life it looking ""flat""

    trust me if I say a 3 axis router just hold you back in the work, then that is...

    but good luck with your venture.. im talking of my experience.. ..
    others also can show what they made...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails What is best for Artistic Milling-dscf6052-1-jpg   What is best for Artistic Milling-dscf6054-1-jpg   What is best for Artistic Milling-safari-20man-20full-1-jpg  


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Shopbot's are decent machines, and have been around for a long time.
    You don't here much about them here, because they have their own, very active user forum at Activity Stream - Let's Talk ShopBot

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

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  10. #30
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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    I've got a Shopbot, have been using it a lot lately, and liking it. It's a sturdy machine that's well thought-out. They use rack-and-pinion drive and V-rails, which gives them decent speed and repeatability in a system that's not as vulnerable to dust and debris as ball screws with profile rails and crossed roller-bearing trucks, which would also drive the price up.

    That said, I have my doubts about that 5-axis machine. It looks a bit flimsy for anything more than foam-cutting, and they aren't promising good performance on hardwoods.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Ok thanks for the input.

    Victor, that looks nice, how was it done? It doesnt seem like it was done on a 3 axis machine because of the undercuts. How tall is it?

    Gerry thanks, checking out their forum.

    Andrew, I took a look at your site, and soon found Juxtamorph. You have some incredible pieces! I had no idea you were an accomplished artist

    Basically you prove my point. Especially wood carvings like 'metaclysm' are exactly what I had in mind to produce with a 3 axis machine. And your cilindircal carvings are not far off either, and very cool. So just out of curiosity, that carving is pretty much straight out of the machine? just with some lacquer on it. It's also quite big, im assuming you did it on a router? Forgive my ignorant questions but routers or mills in general are able to cut all the way through to the bottom to give the piece any contour one would want, like the piece you have?

    Can you PM me some of the prices for your machines, since mostly only the accessories seem to be priced. I noticed no aluminum carvings on your site, is there a reason for that? What machines do you personally use to do your artwork?



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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    Thanks, ikatz! Yes, I've been working at this for a while now, using computerized tools to bring some of my artistic ideas to fruition. With the textures I'm interested in, I need to let the machines work a lot longer than most people do, but when they're done there's not usually a lot of sanding required (that would take forever). Yes, you can cut all the way through a piece, but it's a good idea to leave it attached to whatever's holding it down, or things go screwy at the last moment, when the thing's cut loose.

    Send me a PM indicating what machines you're interested in, and I'll send you some prices (manufacturers are touchy about letting resellers advertise discounts these days). I've got a range of tools I use for my own work, some of which I sell but others which I've either bought, built myself, modified from the stock version or retrofitted. Although I've got the ability to carve aluminum, I'm actually not that fond of how it looks aesthetically; I prefer wood or even plastic.

    [FONT=Verdana]Andrew Werby[/FONT]
    [URL="http://www.computersculpture.com/"]Website[/URL]


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    Default Re: What is best for Artistic Milling

    the spyglass made separatedly...
    I distorted a model, I made after some photos..

    when I say distort its mean I tried to flattening plus giving some type of perspectivity..

    yes it made on 3axis, and it could be a warning you, this involving too much work..
    with 3 axis, you always on a very thin path... always compromises...

    I just checked today fusion 360 ... just like any autodesk program.. it will be a top notch..
    users under 100K annual income can apply as ""hobbyist"" and they can use the 3 axis machining of.. for 40 per month I think you already can use the 3+2 axis and for 100 per month you can use the full 5 aixis features..

    this project made lifesize... just like the owner..



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