VMC Mill Discussion

[handlewanker]

Thomas, rotate your phone 90 degrees when you make a movie :P

Haveyou guys seen this one?

Milling008# cast iron frame customized metal vertical Milling CNC machine bed ,metal engraving 3 axis 330X180X280mm DIY mach3-in Machine Centre from Industry & Business on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

Hi, I quite like this design as it does give you the ability to be able to set up the X,Y and Z axis truly square when you assemble it.

I see it has the column sides all in one piece with the base.....interesting......it can work that way with the separate bolted centre core design for both the x axis and the Y.

I don't think any manufacturer outside of China can get near that price even just for the basic machine frame.

BTW, I did take note of the rear mounted stepper posted by Leeway.....different build, not steel tube or steel plate origin.
Ian.

[Tkamsker]

Bikepete the bt30 Looks nice But who has experience with alienexpress ? How does it work ?and if lets say the Description is Not accurate for what you get ? Has anyone of you experience ?


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[bikepete]

No personal experience, but it looks a bit like ebay - there's a disputes procedure if something goes wrong and a feedback system. And they say the supplier only gets paid once you confirm delivery:

How Escrow secures online transactions

However, it's still a matter of trust that they will send something matching the description and photos. Once it has arrived, shipping costs mean that returning anything defective is pretty impractical I would think, and if something does go wrong you're relying completely on Aliexpress - just as with the Defeng case, there will be no accessible legal measures which can reach into China. If it was a technical complaint whose significance is only understandable to someone who knows tools (e.g. X and Y not orthogonal within reasonable tolerance) I wouldn't like to rely on that.

So still a risk... but who can say how much more (in price for an equivalent machine) a buyer would pay for the reduced risk of an EU machine, where the supplier has to work within a stronger legal framework?

Also, there are probably import/customs charges to add to the prices...

[Tkamsker]

Hi so for this year i already Burned my Fingers (aß we say in german -
But defenitely i am on the way to find out if it is possible in EU and for what price ..

[handlewanker]

Hi, all gambles are a potential finger burner, and dealing with a Chinese supplier direct is still a gamble, that is why you have dealerships that go down the path of authentication procedures and have the stock on the showroom floor for a hands on look-see.

You still do not have any guarantee that the product will have a life expectancy once the box is opened and the wheels start to turn.

I will probably gamble on EBAY when I buy a 2.2KW spindle and matching VFD along with a couple of ball screws too for the router I'm building, but that is how it is.
Ian.

[skillalot]

Ebay, alibaba, aliexpress, all the same when dealing with China. You just have to be carefull and understand what you are buying. And you have to understand that a lower price have a reason.

But I buy frequently from aliexpress, the nice thing on it is that there is a trademanager app, where you can get in contact with the seller pretty fast by chat.
Downside is the escrow, you need a creditcard for that, and I don't have a credit card and I don't want one either. But luckily most sellers are also accepting paypal if you ask for it.
If they accept paypal you can just ask to send them an invoice to your paypal address for the goods you want. Aliexpress can't do much when something goes wrong I think, since you ordered outside of their system, but you still have paypal behind you.

So far I had only one time that there was something wrong with my products, I bought a network camera and the wifi adapter didn't work. I contacted the seller with the trademanager app, and after checking the things she asked me to she just send me a new one in a few days.

[G59]

It's all the same, it's still China. Paypal gives you a bit of peace of mind but they can't guaranty what you order is what you get.
Alieexpress is Ok to deal with as they have a rating system. If it's too low, they terminate your seller account.

It's all a risk no matter who you buy from.

[Tkamsker]

When i am looking at the different options for the heads i think i will have a look at an italian factory where they do all that up to 50k rpm spindles
So eben i am there lets see how much they want and then i have a look at their factory ,..
cheers

[handlewanker]

Wow....50K.....I would not want to have to get that one serviced when the bearings rattle a bit......probably cost more to fix it than a new one almost.

I would assume that with 50K potential speed you would not be hogging metal off at a big rate....would that be a case to invest in an air bearing spindle?
Ian.

[slowlearner]

Tkamsker,
Please see what info you can get from the Italian manufacturer.

[Tkamsker]

Hi look there is the Homepage Peron Speed - Mandrini e Elettromandrini


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[skillalot]

Topic already dead?

[Tkamsker]

Hi,
no it is not
but i right now only could post photos of my 3d printed parts for that tool changer while
we work on fixing the ATC to that mount.
On top i check out what kind of high speed devices make sense or could be used.
And on top i fight a little with the maschinen richtline because it seems to be most difficult to legally build and sell machines than anywhere in the world.
So all the world is laughing about europe how they kill their economy.
i for instance right now try to find out
(i have a working CNC machine based on all CE parts in 3 Versions !!!! )
What the f**k i need to do singn approve to not get later legal issues if i sell that machine or in part.
And the totally useless eu state workers have created an verry nice "internet selling" act which means when the customer is not coming physically to your shop yu are screwed ,..

so probably it really makes sense to do that kind of business somewhere else not in eu

but if i have update and i will i do an update

thx thomas

[skillalot]

Yes, chinese people have a lot less work exporting machines to Europe. They just claim it has CE and put a big CE logo in it.
Then most of the European people think it is approved to european standards, not knowing that CE in China means China Export, lol.

[Tkamsker]

Yes i know that One ,..
But skill a Lot how is it in your Country
If you design a machine and want to sell it

You Need an Risk Assessment ?
An electrican for Tage power
An Electronic Guy ?
And so on how is that Procedere in your Country because i now about to put together the First servo machine but there a States where i Need to follow different procedures
Otherewise my work Double of triples ,..
So i would be really interested thx Thomas



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[skillalot]

In my country it is the same as in yours.
I work at a cnc plasma machine manufacturer and we do a lot of business in Germany

[Tkamsker]

But i am almost through The Law it is Not complicated just a Big pile ,..


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[handlewanker]

Hi, if you have a plethora of mind boggling laws blame it on the "do gooders" who only see chaos where anything that can move will move unexpectedly and so needs to be legislated against to prevent subsequent civil actions.

In their opinion, when the general public is at risk, like women, children aged parents and stray dogs etc, anything that jeopardises their well being is a need to create law processes to shut the door before the horse can bolt.

When you want a perfect World, you must also put up with the bullsh!t law processes that tie you down to nit picking rules that only fools and the unwary would transgress.

Without a law to provide for our safety, we would still be buying mills and lathes that had lead based pint on then to the detriment of children who might chew on the paint work and so must be thoroughly protected by legislation....LOL.

I expect 50% of the cost of a machine goes to pay the lawyers who understand that if the machine caused an accident due to a design fault, the payout would exceed their wage bill many times over, and so a lawyer is the cheapest form of insurance you can have and there are other lawyers who will ensure you pay the price for denying them the service to protect you.

BTW, were you contemplating producing a machine item for sale to the general public without the "guidance" of learned council?
Ian.

[Tkamsker]

You are right handlewanker I was just a Little frustated that Europa especially my contry has not jet overcome middle age ...
Safety is ok Standards are ok rules but just to make some People Happy Who never ever have done something produktive geht's me sometimes ..
Now i need an trading Company which buys from an mecanic Company which needs Electronic it and so on but on the end i am responsible and have to prove that i followed all the rules no add in security just paperwork ...
And Then there is great News in EU if People dont buy at your Shop online sales they have rights which are in sane ...

[johnno402002]

This is a bit off topic for the main theme of this thread, but I'd like to relate a story from a small manufacturer here in Australia. They made transformers and metering units for the local electric utilities, and had done so for 30 years or so without any quality problems and at a good price. The utilities were government owned, and the government decreed that all suppliers to the government must have quality certification. So the next tender is put on the market by one of the utilities, and the small manufacturer could not comply. They did a lot of experimental work with the national standards lab, all their measuring gear was calibrated by the lab as part of this work, but they did not have official test certificates. They didn't have written procedures for everything they did, they just did everything properly.. So they lost their work, someone else won the tender. Next thing, the winning tenderer contacted them to make all the difficult bits, which they did. They sent them off to the successful tenderer, only to get a call that the bits they supplied were no good. They eventually worked out they were connected up all wrong, and had been put in a housing which would leak water into it. This is a key point about some quality systems, you can have processes which are well documented, but produce crap, and you can get certification.The quality is all about how accurately you can reproduce something, nothing to do with how good the product is.
The next tender came out. and the small manufacturer decided to have some fun. They worked out the cost price of the materials in the items, and submitted that as their price... they get a phone call, have you got certification yet? They answered no, and then they hung up. Another call, you don't need full certification, just for the process of building this item, No, hang up again. Third phone call, what if we came and wrote the documentation for certification for you, no, hang up again. Next call was from the successful tenderer, asking them to make all the difficult bits again...