Finding REAL tradesmen and talant


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    Default Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Hi All,
    I have a question that I am sure most business owners would love to have the answer too and that I am sure many have better ideas than me. I started a small machine shop about two years ago and have grown it from a cnc lathe and a mill to 6 cnc spindles and all the manual and supporting stuff. We run prototype, onesy and twosy to runs of 2000 with most in the 10 to 100 range. We are 5 on floor employees not including sales and office staff. I have access to a lot more work and really should have two more CNC's and three more guys on the floor right now and more later in the year. My problem is finding more machinists. In particular finding ones that are proficient at their jobs. I can find operators anytime, they walk thru the door almost daily. Most are not worth anything and obviously did not have any responsibility in their old jobs because they have trouble measuring with a vernier. What I am talking about is a real machinist. Real tradesmen. The guys who KNOW their job. The guy that is interested in how to cut metal and how the metal behaves, that likes to make good parts.
    I am good at placing the ad, getting LOTS of resumes. We are a nice clean small shop willing to pay good wages and top wages for great machinists. Problem is, I get all these resumes in with 5, 15 years, 25 years experience. All looks awesome on paper. Nice guys, well presented. Know the talk. Problem is, when you put them on the machine. How can a guy with 15 years tool and die experience be burning up and breaking cutters because they don't know feeds and speeds? If the guy just ran other peoples programs, to me that's and operator. Anyone can run a CNC if there is a good guy spoon feeding them all the time. But then your paying two people to do the job of one. AND the spoon fed guys going to ask for a raise because hes making all these great parts.........
    I love the "old timers" but the CNC murders them. Lots of respect for them but I need the computer skills. Then take the "Geek". There is a flurry of mouse clicks, a flurry of button pushes and in record time they are ready to make chips. A couple crashes, new tooling and lots of burnt inserts and stainless parts I need to "Just trim .ooo5" off and it'll be in spec" already taken out of the jaws laying on the table or 20 "Rembrandt's" all over the map and I'd have to sell their first born to pay what they have cost me.
    Probably enough moaning and groaning.....

    The question I propose is:

    How do you guys sort the good from the bad?


    I am determined to get good at this hiring thing. I think it is key to the growth of my shop. We want to change the interview process and are thinking about a more involved testing procedure. The problem I see is if a guy is a really good, he's working, and getting a "test day" from a guy like that may be difficult. Good guys are in short supply and if they come available for whatever reason I'd hate to lose him because I was trying to schedule a test for him and the guys down the street just give him an offer same day. BUT in the same breath, at the size of shop I am, the impact of a bad hire is huge. Even though a guy might not be able to perform in my shop he might still do well at a "production" shop and I hate the idea of a guy leaving a stable job to come to my shop and have him not be a good fit.

    I know there will be people saying to find the hungry young guy and grow and groom him into a super star. I do agree with that but that takes time and I need my shop to grow faster than that. I have lots of thoughts on why the number of qualified machinists are dropping. Most of them based around the wages of the trade and that "smart" kids are pushed into going to college and technologist courses not the trades. So for right now today, I need to hire people that are solid. Tomorrow I'll look for the technologist that didn't realize when his counselor told him to go into engineering because his math was good that he actually finds it more fulfilling to work with his mind and his hands making cool stuff on cool machines.

    Any ideas? I want to employ a good hiring process but don't want to make it so involved that it takes away from attracting people when they really can go anywhere.

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by Place2809; 06-07-2017 at 04:07 AM. Reason: My spelling sucks, removed prefix


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    Monkeywrench Technician DareBee's Avatar
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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    It is almost a dead trade.
    Most C of Q guys are button pushing monkeys or assemblers.
    Most shops are only selling spindle time at cut-rate prices and only hire minimum wagers, this is the beauty of the CNC era (roll eyes). This is why we haven't quoted machining for years.
    The best is to get talented young people out of the local high schools technical program and apprentice them yourself, otherwise you have to steal them from other jobbing shops. If a skilled tradesman is unemployed in my area it usually means they need to change their career path.
    As a multi-trade holder myself, I would likely tell you to pound salt if you asked my to spend a day showcasing my skills. Why should I when there is a line up of places waiting?
    You should probably keep on like you are and remember to use the 3 month probation period. If you are still unsure if that person is a keeper at 3 months it is because they are not and you are just being a nice guy

    www.integratedmechanical.ca


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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Where are you located in Canada?



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    I'm in eastern Ontario.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Hi....you have a problem all of your own making.......back in the old days we had to work at a 5 year apprenticeship to become a basic skilled machinist/tradesman.....then you start at the bottom of the ladder and start learning to make things right......without the basic skills you can't get onto the first rung of the ladder.

    Things have changed now.......the machine does the skilled work as it's made to and the operator just pushes the green button.........if the program is OK you get parts......if the parts are wrong or out of spec, blame the machine.

    I could not imagine anyone, even a skilled person, producing one off parts straight off the machine without some fault on the way.....there are just too many dimension to get right from beginning to end

    In production you expect to have a percentage of out of spec parts as par for the course.

    I would challenge anyone who walks in from the street to make one off parts on a strange machine without some hiccups at first.

    At the speeds and feeds that a CNC machine is capable off you need to have a machine in absolute first rate order as they do wear a bit with time and a machinist gets to know how to apply the variables.

    I would expect someone new who starts out in a new shop to 'brighten" up after at least a week and be able to show what they can do with your layout.

    It might be a good idea to discuss a prospective job with the newie to ensure he's on the same wavelength as you when it comes to running the program etc, especially on a first time run on a limited batch run.....assuming of course you are more skilled than he is with your machinery.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Quote Originally Posted by DareBee View Post
    The best is to get talented young people out of the local high schools technical program and apprentice them yourself,
    I disagree. There are many people out there with university degrees in math, physics, engineering, who can't find work. So you know they are smart. Perhaps they have lost their job, and are a bit older now and would love the opportunity to get into something new.

    Of course, if you're only willing to pay minimum wage, then yes, what you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Place2809 View Post
    I'm in eastern Ontario.
    That's too bad. I'm in Southwestern Ontario and looking for work. That's why I asked.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Sadly, what I am seeing more of in all skilled industries that I service cnc machinery in, is declining highly skilled craftsmen. What the going norm is around here is you find one person that meets your criteria and pay him very well. Then all he does is supervise and setup/diagnose etc. other minimum wage operators. To ask for more than one and that is a crap shot.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    LOL......the point is also that anyone who aspires to be a top dog with degrees in engineering, just ain't cut out to be a sweaty shop floor machine minder........that person wants to sit in an office and make phone calls to important people who will further his/her career.....that will never happen at shop floor level......getting to be the foreman is about as high as you can go.

    If you want to get skilled people you have to find someone who WANTs to work with machinery as if their life depended on it.

    I guess the aspect of a 5 year training program and then to lose that person to another shop when they graduate to get further experience is something you forgot has to happen.....but that was the old way.....now you want an instant 20 year old with 40 years experience working for a start out wage.

    BTW.....since when do you need a time wasting university degree just to work good at a machine?

    Winston Churchill hit the nail on the head.......he said, "If you over educate the working classes you no longer have a working class".

    Americans have no desire to be classed as a working class person......they have much to learn.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    You hit it on the head. The next workers coming through don't want to work in the warehouse or get their hands dirty. Here in Sarasota, Fl you either have people that are about to retire or nothing at all, and I'm taken for 40-60 hr a week.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    I run 5 5'x10' cnc routers for a furniture company ranging from northwoods to multicam, and no I don't work them all day. I can if needed but my worth is in prototyping, machine repair, programming and training. Green button pushers are easy to train and watch.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    LOL......the point is also that anyone who aspires to be a top dog with degrees in engineering, just ain't cut out to be a sweaty shop floor machine minder........that person wants to sit in an office and make phone calls to important people who will further his/her career.....that will never happen at shop floor level......getting to be the foreman is about as high as you can go.
    That's only true of people who are fresh out of school who initially have unrealistic expectations. Really, how many jobs are there for people with physics degrees? Or applied math? Vs. the number of graduates. It might be different where you live.

    Lots of unemployed intelligent and educated people in their 30s who would love to have a job programming CNC machines and working on the shop floor.

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    If you want to get skilled people you have to find someone who WANTs to work with machinery as if their life depended on it.
    I agree, the person needs to have a deep interest in the subject matter.

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    BTW.....since when do you need a time wasting university degree just to work good at a machine?
    The OP wants people who can do the CAD / CAM work, not just parts loaders. A person with a university degree in one of the subjects I listed both knows how to work hard, and has a guaranteed level of intelligence. I'm not saying that you need a degree to be smart, only that if you have one in a hard subject, you have proven a certain level of intelligence that may otherwise be hard to gauge.

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Winston Churchill hit the nail on the head.......he said, "If you over educate the working classes you no longer have a working class".
    I have a university degree, and I'm in my 30s and I would love to work in a proper CNC shop. But I can't get a job in one. And the choice is that of the employer who wants to hire some dummy fresh out of high school shop class instead.

    Also, Winston Churchill's argument is flawed! To think that you can take and educate anyone to a certain level is ridiculous. Take 200 random dummies from high school shop class, put them in a four year applied math degree with full scholarship and see what percentage are actually even capable of graduating.

    Quote Originally Posted by davy182 View Post
    You hit it on the head. The next workers coming through don't want to work in the warehouse or get their hands dirty. Here in Sarasota, Fl you either have people that are about to retire or nothing at all, and I'm taken for 40-60 hr a week.
    OR, they can't live on minimum wage.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Hi, I think I missed the point I wanted to make........if I was starting out in engineering today...... I wouldn't.....who wants to watch a mindless machine doing mindless work for hour after hour, day after day....forever.

    There's no satisfaction with a CNC machine doing the work once you close the door and press the green button ....once again.....monkeys can be trained to do that.

    I started out in engineering in the 50's.....something I always wanted to do......CNC would not be on my wish list.........maybe scrubbing toilets would be more interesting.

    That I get a buzz from programming my own CNC hobby mill to do things that are too repetitive and tedious for a manual mill goes without saying........but I would not seek out a job that wanted me to do just that.

    If I had a degree in engineering, I still would not lower myself to get down and dirty on a CNC machine for peanuts which is what you need to pay someone when you deskill the job to make production pay.

    However, you still need engineers with degrees in offices that plan the jobs that get sent to CNC work centres that other people without degrees need to work on to get paid peanuts.

    I think the manpower belt tightening procedure is the main problem........as in wanting to pay for a jack of all trades etc......keep the brains out of the workplace and the brawn in it.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    NIC77,

    I agree as well with the fact employers also need to have a better handle on hourly wage for experience. I laugh at some craigslist postings for a position that should be in the 25/hr + only to be listed as 15hr with overtime.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    If I was starting out from school and wanted a career path......wow, that is some aspiration to get around as a school leaver.

    If you planned out a career path and it took 5 years of "book larning".......then wanted to get a job.....where's the work experience factor that an employer needs to have?

    I would say without knowing the education system time line that at age 18 if you finished high school and went on to Uni for another 3 years ....whatever........what do you know....theory? some work experience? ....not enough to impress an employer that you can make him rich while you earn peanuts getting dirty on a machine......and you have a shiny degree to impress your girlfriend and folks back home.

    I think that there is a wide difference in the small shop requirements to produce parts with minimal diversity of labour as opposed to a large shop with the infrastructure that has a departmentalised labour variety and does not require a jack of all trades factor to make ends meet.

    Some people can and do work machines all day long ......forever..... and don't get tired of doing it......that they are highly skilled in their narrow aptitudes is the path they've trod for many years and does not get better once a certain level is reached, but if you aspire to greater things, working a CNC machine all day long is not on the wish list unless you're brain dead.

    My father was a tool maker and was considered top of his class by reason of all the testimonials he accumulated....his motto was...."If they're paying a bob more down the street, that's where you'll find me".....times have definitely changed.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    That's only true of people who are fresh out of school who initially have unrealistic expectations. Really, how many jobs are there for people with physics degrees? Or applied math? Vs. the number of graduates. It might be different where you live.
    At the last college graduation ceremony I attended, I was amazed at the number of people receiving degrees in fields where I'd assume were not many good paying jobs....



    Lots of unemployed intelligent and educated people in their 30s who would love to have a job programming CNC machines and working on the shop floor.
    I would think that in most cases, these are two different jobs.


    The OP wants people who can do the CAD / CAM work, not just parts loaders. A person with a university degree in one of the subjects I listed both knows how to work hard, and has a guaranteed level of intelligence
    That person may have a certain level of knowledge in their field of study, but lacks the experience needed to do these jobs.

    Experience is the key issue here.
    In the old days, machinists learned their field as apprentices, taking years to accumulate their knowledge. To be really good at CAD/CAM, you really need those years of experience as a machinist.
    There are millions of people that think they are really good with CAD/CAM, but without years of machining experience, they can't get the required results from their CAM programs.

    The best CAD/CAM people are the ones with 10-20 years of hands on machining experience. I work in the woodworking industry, and the situation is the same.
    There are great paying jobs available, but they require experience. To gain experience, you need to start at the bottom, and work you're way up. This requires a LOT of initiative on the part of the employee. They have to WANT to learn, and try to learn as much as possible. I've worked with people with years of experience, but not a lot of desire to learn. They only know what they were taught. Without the desire to learn, you don't move up.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    yep...the learning curve in whatever field is still at the bottom and working upwards.

    It's no good applying for a high tech job without the degree necessary to go on from there....just being able to program and make parts is scratching the surface....it'll get you a job, but so will washing dishes at a greasy spoon café......you could become a master chef at sandwich making.

    I once applied for a job as an industrial insurance salesman, mainly because I had industrial exposure and could talk industrial people language..........selling the stuff was another matter and the money was a 3 year progress payment with a basic wage you could go hungry on even without a wife, kids, mortgage, car and furniture payment to meet.

    It pays right from the start, at school leaving level to consider a CNC career as a plan and work at it as if your life depended on it....which is what you would do if you want to have money....coming into this field at age 30 or so and having all the life commitments that take a regular wage is not a plan it's a desire you won't fulfil.

    Employers in that case,. faced with enthusiastic people who need to get into the trade but haven't the quals need to work with them and plan out a career path so they can become what the nation needs with a skilled worker pool.

    Just because you don't get the person for a life sentence after having taught them all you know in your line of business, and they move on when they get a better offer, means eventually the wheel will come full circle and the pool spill out in your direction and you will get the more mature people you want.....it's a national commitment, and the Government should get in on this act if Trump is as good as his word for making it at home etc.

    I would think that a subsidizing plan to allow people to get into a CNC job at low wage levels but be boosted in their wage packet to make it pay..... say a 3 year reducing subsidy as the employment wage increased with proficiency rises.....almost a mature age apprenticeship.

    If Trump wants a born again workforce he's got to buy into it as a shareholder.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    LOL......the point is also that anyone who aspires to be a top dog with degrees in engineering, just ain't cut out to be a sweaty shop floor machine minder........that person wants to sit in an office and make phone calls to important people who will further his/her career.....that will never happen at shop floor level......getting to be the foreman is about as high as you can go.

    If you want to get skilled people you have to find someone who WANTs to work with machinery as if their life depended on it.

    I guess the aspect of a 5 year training program and then to lose that person to another shop when they graduate to get further experience is something you forgot has to happen.....but that was the old way.....now you want an instant 20 year old with 40 years experience working for a start out wage.

    BTW.....since when do you need a time wasting university degree just to work good at a machine?
    .
    Ian.

    In my opinion the guys who have learned the trade from the bottom up ( from deburring to machinist ) , they are there because they chose to be . The highly educated are usually failed engineers who are machining because it is the closest gig related to their trained field , meaning that most of them would rather be doing something else . It isn't always the case but I've worked with enough pretentious pricks who thought they were above the rest of us dogs


    Quote Originally Posted by Place2809 View Post
    Hi All,


    Any ideas? I want to employ a good hiring process but don't want to make it so involved that it takes away from attracting people when they really can go anywhere.
    If your looking for people who can take an idea or drawing and make it a reality , then , hand them parts during the interview and ask them how they would make the part , how many ops , what tools and why . An experienced machinist should snap to it pretty quickly without too much thought . Interview nervousness may affect the answer some but they should get straight to the point You may even find guys who will have an approach that you haven't even thought of .

    Also , don't overlook the young keener , they may not have the full experience now but some guys pick up on things fast , and with a guy like this you'll have a big ball of clay that you can form to fit your shop . It's an investment into the future . Some experienced guys can be stuck in their ways and are a bit more difficult to make that right fit

    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    I guess in the old days it was much easier to impress a boss.....all you had to do was walk in the door flash your papers and you were hired.....the wages were top dollar too or you went next door, that's how plentiful the work was.

    I often had to braze a tip onto a steel shank because the boss was too tight to buy the proper holder, but that made you all the more valuable when you come out on top

    I always got more money when a shop did a lot of cast iron work.....not many people understood that iron is different to steel and stinks even worse when it lays in a sump with coolant for a few weeks.

    Back then in the 60's most of the guys were early school leavers...starting at 16 was normal and you got your papers at 21.....having papers was like printing money, it was more valuable than an insurance policy.

    At school I learned to do screwcutting at age 14 by lurking around the metalwork class after school until the master showed me how to flip the half nuts lever and quickly wind the crosslide back and I learned to read a mike at age 12.......how keen can you get.

    I never wanted to get further than the machine stage as being a foreman or chargehand meant you had to cop all the flack from the boss when things went wrong on the shop floor....at the same time you could move jobs without having to lose years of licking the boss's arse to get to the top.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    I
    I never wanted to get further than the machine stage as being a foreman or chargehand meant you had to cop all the flack from the boss when things went wrong on the shop floor....at the same time you could move jobs without having to lose years of licking the boss's arse to get to the top.
    Ian.
    I think thats the case with a lot of guys . I made the mistake of taking on shift supervisor while still working the mills . They say $#% rolls down the hill . It really sucks being half way up the hill because you get hit as it rolls down and you get hit as it's thrown back , ultimately your the guy covered in most of the S$$t and you never even started the problem .

    I don't go back anywhere near you Ian but I've been around long enough . Machine shop class was the only class I cared for in school . I started in a crumby production shop along with a bunch of other guys my age . Many were there for the money and many of us were there for the learning experience . Most of us who toughed it out are now at the top of the food chain . I never did get my papers and I dropped my apprenticeship because feeding 2 young mouths was more important than my ambitions . For me the paperwork is irrelevant , I can make a few calls over an afternoon and I'll be rolling in my toolbox in the morning (union or not)
    Thats why I think that a young keener will out weigh most of the guys with degrees

    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


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    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Hi...that's so true......experience is an ongoing thing and many people just get a working knowledge and try to guess the rest as they fumble along.....others are in it for the ride and really want to learn the ropes.......those people I can work with and respect as I learned a lot from many of them.

    The biggest problem facing many is the low wages at the start, that's why I think a government subsidy would produce and support many workers who previously didn't really know what they wanted to do before they got older and wiser, found out what was involved and tried to get a job with the commitments that need money to survive.

    Some apprenticeships that people enter into leave them no better off than when they started due to the work that they do and the training schedule that they fail to commit to......that's no better than cheap labour at subsistence wages.

    Some of the best places to learn a trade were those crummy dumps that had machinery so old it must have been old when Noah was in the Ark........but at the same time all you get to know is what is current in the trade and out of date at that.......high tech places generally are good if you are bright enough to learn the ropes, but can be daunting if you don't understand what is going on.

    Coming out of a highly trained program does leave you with the idea that you know it all and can't be told otherwise.....you soon learn that a general knowledge base is more valuable to further your career as you work at different places and work is more plentiful.

    In my first year as a fully qualified tradesman the shortest time in a job was 2 weeks and the longest was 3 months.....sometimes because the places were a dump and other times because the work was too boring etc......money did create an incentive to stay longer though......some weeks we worked 60 hours and slept by the machine for an overnight job.....good money for a single guy if you wanted to do it, but hard yakka.
    Ian.



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Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

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