Finding REAL tradesmen and talant - Page 4


Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234
Results 37 to 40 of 40

Thread: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

  1. #37
    Gold Member dertsap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    4214
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi, that machinist that drilled the same part for year after year was not a skilled person.


    I have to wonder why anyone would invest in a CNC machine to do one off jobs..... .
    the button pusher is at roughly the same level as the guy that drilled holes all his life . He may even be skilled enough to draw a part , cam it and set it up , but likely has no foresight into proper manufacturing procedures or understand the code the computer spit out . Running software is one thing , running machinery is another (even if it uses software)
    There are massive benefits to doing one off on cnc if the shop is properly equipped . A gearbox is a good example . A gear box can be run on a horizontal mill and be milled , bored , bcd , etc on numerous positions and rotations . The amount of manual setups that is eliminated can be extreme . I'd say there is far more room for error to set up a manual horizontal with a rotary table to accomplish the same . It can be done but it's a lot of manual work , and time is money . The cnc is still a lot of work once a casting has been leveled and properly picked up . Bores generally get run multiple times , because it's silly to trust that the bore head will repeat exactly from part to part . Pick up one chip on a tool holder and you are done . Outside dimensions are often run to leave extra material so they can be measured the recut to finish specs . Stress relief and warpage is still as real as ever . Thats why I said that a lot of the old school principles still matter
    The job shop needs highly skilled guys otherwise they will lose more money in a day than they can make . For the guys on the floor it is usually nothing less than high stress and pressure .
    I used to look around and bulging red eyes were everywhere , and even some of the semi production jobs were nerve wrecking .
    In the past I've had guys laugh when I said cnc work can be stressful but I'd have liked to see them try to walk a 1/4 mile of what I had ( not to suggest anyone here ) .
    I had a unique opportunity to get out and work a cushier but interesting job , so I took a pay cut to get out of that bs . I have never claim to know it all and I've always told my new/potential bosses that if I don't know then I'll figure it out and I'll get it done . I don't think that there is any actual "knowing it all" in this trade , and many times it's about having enough balls to go for it
    Unfortunately the inevitable might just be that I land back in that same position all over again , I'm a sucker for punishment and the money is good

    BTW ; I have to disagree with the slim profit margin . The one shop I was in decided they had enough with the bottom feeding competition and started doing the work that no one else wanted to do . Profits were massive and the shop grew incredibly fast and is still growing today

    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


  2. #38
    Gold Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5843
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    Hi, it's a lucky situation if the outside work is plentiful so you can pick and choose, but when you're waiting for someone to get on the phone for a quote or drop a drawing on the desk for a quote that nobody else can match......that's when the lean and mean situation takes control.

    Having people who will multiskill under pressure to manage work programs that they normally wouldn't have to get involved in does put you in a position to be reliant on their expertise, and if they want to up anchor and move on for whatever reason....and it's not always for more money, ask me how I know........ the learning curve they became expert at goes with them.

    Back in the old days you could move from job to job and never leave a ripple in your leaving......that was mostly chasing the money, sometimes because the shop was a pig sty and the machinery on it's last legs, so if you had the gift to work with and squeeze the last bit of accuracy out of a worn machine you generally could get the top dollar, but it never lasted, and once you became part of the furniture it was time to move on.

    I have to think that CNC machinery has to be the most volatile means to machine with......if the machine is yesterday's hero, today it's considered the least reliable means to do a job on......that puts in in the too hard basket when that's all you have.

    I came across this situation when the firm I last worked for acquired a couple of Mazac CNC lathes from another firm amalgamation and they never got used for more than basic work due to them having been worked to death and only fit for low tolerance stuff......that's where the cookie crumbles, and if that's your best shot at the competitive price quoting......you ain't gonna survive.

    The point is then, who do you blame when the SHTF and parts turn out not as you want them.

    Like I said, today it's all brain surgery and specialists.......in my day we were all expert GP's.

    The top brass thinks that investing in a multi mega buck high tech machine layout will cure the lack of skilled personal availability by deskilling the work production methods

    Ball screws and linear rails have opened up a whole new World for machine accuracy, but they do wear and the day after tomorrow the investment is a lot less reliable than day one, but operators are still expected to work with that situation as if it were brand new.
    Ian.



  3. #39
    Gold Member dertsap's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    canada
    Posts
    4214
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    it takes a long time to burn out a quality cnc . I ran one part that was roughly 350k on a million dollar machine (mostly ran) secondary roughing ops were on another machine . It was a 2 shift and a week and a half job . Doesn't take long to pay off a mill under those circumstances . Just like cutting tools , a guys got to know when to toss em . We ran them mills fairly hard but not overly doing it in the 5 years I was there and the older mills were pretty much as solid as the new mills Though a lot of hogging was necessary at times precision was the biggest factor in the work that we did . We had 2 20 (30 now) yr old mori's that did the smaller jobs . Aside from having the end bearings replaced and the ballscrews (just because it was opened up for the bearings) those machines were more solid than any hass in the same caliber . They were solid before doing the bearings , but the bearings were on their way out for some time .

    and yep , it's volatile , so are many of the guys doing it . A guy has to have a thick skin . Bow your head and take the s@%$ when things go sideways and they were within control , or be ready to have at er when your blamed for stuff that was out of ones control . Ol school principles once again apply lol

    The big expensive machines are replacing a lot of workers in production shops . Look at what can be done with the cell systems . I worked on a small 8 pallet system that ran lights out . Afternoon shift would spend 2 hours loading the cell before leaving for the night , last pallet would be finishing as I'd walk in the door . One of the managers had software link so that he can monitor the mill from home . He knew what tool was running , what part was running , loads etc . Tool breakage detection was set up so that after a prone tool ran then it would be re-qualified . If during the tool probing the tool ran x amount past the original offset then the machine knew that the tool was broke , then it would cancel the touch off , spit out the pallet and bring in the next job . This was a small cell . They get much bigger and can be pumping pallets into numerous machines . This is a case where you don't even have a button pusher , just a parts loader .
    Production shops that contract for work for the most part are fighting over dimes to get the work , so that they can set up machines and have someone hover over them to measure parts and keep the machine moving . Efficiency is the key to making money on production work . Leaning the process , fixturing and quality tooling are a must
    Usually the skill level isn't what would be seen in a job shop , except for a chosen few who keep things optimized and the work flowing . This is always the eggs in one basket scenario , because these guys become specialized to that company , and when they move on it leaves a dent . Workers are expendable as always but it always throws a wrench into things

    BTW
    Worn out stuff got me thinking . I remember one of the manual machinists who would turn some fantastic parts . she complained quite a few times about how worn the screws felt on that ancient beast . The maintenance guy decided to give the screws a check and we were amazed that she was able to even work with that lathe let alone put out the tolerances that she could . The cross screw was shaped like an hour glass . Skills come in all shapes and sizes

    A poet knows no boundary yet he is bound to the boundaries of ones own mind !! ........


  4. #40
    Gold Member handlewanker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    5843
    Downloads
    0
    Uploads
    0

    Default Re: Finding REAL tradesmen and talant

    LOL.......an hour glass cross screw........that reminds me of a job I once did for a guy who was into some light production on an old manual turret etc.........he asked me to make a new nut for the cross feed as it had a full turn of slop........I kid thee not.....imagine plunging a form tool into stock and the slide wants to self feed.

    Long story short, the nut was a square hunk of bronze with a 4 start thread.....no way I was going to cut a new one on my old 1920 Colchester Bantam with hand feeding all the way.

    All he wanted was for the machine to last a month or two before it got sold off again........so I just cut a 10mm slice off the back of the nut and shaved it down until the backlash was taken up.....then I tapped a few screw holes in the end face and tightened it up.

    The screw was worn in the centre but the sloppy part now only had a slight bit of slackness which for hand feeding the crosslide was plenty adequate.

    Looking at how the industry has ramped up over the last 20-30 years and you have to realise that if you ain't in it at the beginning you won't get there now.....just too much high tech expectation to get into the rat race, and it's not getting any better for the new guys, but I expect it's always been that way but on another platform......the evolution tends to pass you by when you take your eyes off it.

    The way I've come to see it now is that the engineering field has taken a sharp right angle turn ......for the better I would hasten to add.......and the whole aspect of personal achievement has gone with the need to get production out at all cost.......the machine is now the main actor and we're the audience waiting for it to happen......until the fat lady sings, it's out of our control.

    With that realisation, the dehumanising of the manufacturing process has also very necessarily dehumanised the skills that once were learned by personal participation and the day will come when untouched by Human hand will be the ultimate reality......and robots don't need to go for a pee....ever.
    Ian.



Page 4 of 4 FirstFirst 1234

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  


About CNCzone.com

    We are the largest and most active discussion forum for manufacturing industry. The site is 100% free to join and use, so join today!

Follow us on


Our Brands

Finding REAL tradesmen and talant
Finding REAL tradesmen and talant